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Cache is the new RAM

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Re: Cache is the new RAM

#81

Post by lucian1900 »

aninhumer wrote: post #80
ajuc wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoiding gendered words as a recept for more women in IT seems very funny to me. My language forces you to add gender-dependent postfixes to every verb and noun. Nobody have a problem with that, and I think there's more women in IT here than in US. It's obviously not the source of problem. The source is people being jerks. You don't fix that by changing the non-jerks language (jerks won't care). In fact nonjerks were…

>My language forces you to add gender-dependent postfixes to every verb and noun. If there's truly no gender neutral way of saying something, then I'd imagine that people always use one gender for generic cases, and as such it's not exclusionary. Which is different from having the option and not using it. >The source is people being jerks. Non-jerks being exclusionary is arguably far more of a problem than isolated j…

> If there's truly no gender neutral way of saying something, then I'd imagine that people always use one gender for generic cases, and as such it's not exclusionary.

But it is almost always male, even in languages that have the concept of neuter. Defaults matter.

Re: Cache is the new RAM

#82

Post by ajuc »

aninhumer wrote: post #80
ajuc wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoiding gendered words as a recept for more women in IT seems very funny to me. My language forces you to add gender-dependent postfixes to every verb and noun. Nobody have a problem with that, and I think there's more women in IT here than in US. It's obviously not the source of problem. The source is people being jerks. You don't fix that by changing the non-jerks language (jerks won't care). In fact nonjerks were…

>My language forces you to add gender-dependent postfixes to every verb and noun. If there's truly no gender neutral way of saying something, then I'd imagine that people always use one gender for generic cases, and as such it's not exclusionary. Which is different from having the option and not using it. >The source is people being jerks. Non-jerks being exclusionary is arguably far more of a problem than isolated j…

> If there's truly no gender neutral way of saying something, then I'd imagine that people always use one gender for generic cases, and as such it's not exclusionary. Which is different from having the option and not using it.

Well, the option is always there, you can use "The person that is using this application clicks the button X" instead of "User clicks the button X". "Person" is female so you then use female for every verb. It's just longer, inconvenient and sounds like legal text so nobody does it. People just write everything in male versions. Even "Are you sure?" is different depening on gender of "you", and I'm yet to see application that uses anything other than the male version for dialogs (except for the applications that know your gender somehow).

I think the distinction beetween using defaults without assuming gender, and assumming gender is important, but some people argue for using the contrived language to not be exclusionary, and that's what I'm against, and what I think is counterproductive.

Imagine if everybody talked in legalese when you aproach them, and switched to normal language otherways.

Re: Cache is the new RAM

#83

Post by aninhumer »

ajuc wrote: post #82
aninhumer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My language forces you to add gender-dependent postfixes to every verb and noun. If there's truly no gender neutral way of saying something, then I'd imagine that people always use one gender for generic cases, and as such it's not exclusionary. Which is different from having the option and not using it. >The source is people being jerks. Non-jerks being exclusionary is arguably far more of a problem than isolated j…

> If there's truly no gender neutral way of saying something, then I'd imagine that people always use one gender for generic cases, and as such it's not exclusionary. Which is different from having the option and not using it. Well, the option is always there, you can use "The person that is using this application clicks the button X" instead of "User clicks the button X". "Person" is female so you then use female fo…

Humans are pretty flexible when it comes to language, what sounds awkward or verbose can often become completely natural over time. That said I agree that it's easier to make smaller language changes stick.

There might be an alternative way to phrase things neutrally that's easier to say though. (passive?)

Re: Cache is the new RAM

#84

Post by mmcwilliams »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #75
mmcwilliams wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand that it isn't a "euphemism" as euphemisms are substitutions for vulgarity, not substitutions of vulgarity. Notice how the replacement you suggest, "unwarranted bravado," isn't blunt or vulgar? The term, as it was used, is a metaphor. As a metaphor, its imagery is fair game for criticism. As for the criticism itself, I think it stands as the phrase is unnecessarily gendered.

I think the term you're both looking for is 'dysphemism'. (Edit: typographical error).

Actually yes, that's much more fitting.

Re: Cache is the new RAM

#85

Post by throwaway981 »

aninhumer wrote: post #83
ajuc wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there's truly no gender neutral way of saying something, then I'd imagine that people always use one gender for generic cases, and as such it's not exclusionary. Which is different from having the option and not using it. Well, the option is always there, you can use "The person that is using this application clicks the button X" instead of "User clicks the button X". "Person" is female so you then use female fo…

Humans are pretty flexible when it comes to language, what sounds awkward or verbose can often become completely natural over time. That said I agree that it's easier to make smaller language changes stick. There might be an alternative way to phrase things neutrally that's easier to say though. (passive?)

Yet if neither men nor women wish to change their own language, why must it be changed?

Sometimes HN reminds me of Christian missionaries: interposing themselves into foreign cultures that they do not understand and saying "No! No! It's all wrong! You do it our way."

It is an ugly kind of imperialism.

Re: Cache is the new RAM

#86

Post by fit2rule »

throwaway981 wrote: post #60
GrinningFool wrote: post #39

> It pisses me off to no end these developers have to out-think SQL and re-invent the whole damn new wheel for "efficiency's" sake. Worked with someone who did this a couple years ago. I keep trying to get him to explain why he was reinventing sql, and never did get a clear answer to that. > just waggles their dick around saying Sorry to be the one to say it, but I don't think that part was necessary or appropriate t…

There seems to be a culture clash on HN. On one side there is California, where "dick wagging" is an unnecessary instance of gendered language, certain to drive women out of the tech industry. On the other side there's the rest of the world, where being offended by "dick wagging" seems dazzlingly childish. It's just a penis, most grown men and women know what they are and observe their motions on a daily basis. In Bh…

Myself, I view it not so much as a cultural clash, but rather an academic one. People sometimes just do not know how to describe the phenomena which perplex, enrage, disturb and perturb them so, and the frustration is such that they result to the vulgar form, which .. after all .. is as you say, a fairly universally understood level of concourse and therefore has its appropriate applicability to the conversation, but naturally - since all language is a system of power and control - with the aforementioned risks of offense. Those who choose to react in offense, and those who choose to see the language being used in light of the subject, may well be the end of the conversation. But, this is a language discussion, no? I myself find SQL elegant, whereas compared to the NoSQL DSL's that shizzle the newschool nizzle, shits fucked yo.

Re: Cache is the new RAM

#87

Post by ajuc »

aninhumer wrote: post #83
ajuc wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there's truly no gender neutral way of saying something, then I'd imagine that people always use one gender for generic cases, and as such it's not exclusionary. Which is different from having the option and not using it. Well, the option is always there, you can use "The person that is using this application clicks the button X" instead of "User clicks the button X". "Person" is female so you then use female fo…

Humans are pretty flexible when it comes to language, what sounds awkward or verbose can often become completely natural over time. That said I agree that it's easier to make smaller language changes stick. There might be an alternative way to phrase things neutrally that's easier to say though. (passive?)

Yes, passive works as well, as long as you don't need to have 2 or more agents doing different things. Still it's longer, contrived, and sounds like legal text.

Regarding small changes - not possible :) In English I would like "hen" to exist, cause it's often useful. In Polish it wouldn't change a thing, you'd need to change the underlying system if you want gender-neutral language, and at that point you may as well invent a new language. Every word (ending) will change anyway, that means words work differently with cases, numbers, plurality works differently. People would need to relearn the whole thing.

But most importantly I really don't think the language is the problem. In Poland there are more female doctors than male. Same with teachers. Yet the default word for unknown gender doctor or teacher is male, and the plural is made from male versions usually. Haven't stopped women to dominate these fields.

Anyway, thanks for discussion.

Re: Cache is the new RAM

#88

Post by ajuc »

throwaway981 wrote: post #85
aninhumer wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are pretty flexible when it comes to language, what sounds awkward or verbose can often become completely natural over time. That said I agree that it's easier to make smaller language changes stick. There might be an alternative way to phrase things neutrally that's easier to say though. (passive?)

Yet if neither men nor women wish to change their own language, why must it be changed? Sometimes HN reminds me of Christian missionaries: interposing themselves into foreign cultures that they do not understand and saying "No! No! It's all wrong! You do it our way." It is an ugly kind of imperialism.

Meh, nobody is using guns, and the discussion is interesting. I just don't like the assumptions some people make (I've heard that my culture is inherently sexist for example).

Re: Cache is the new RAM

#89

Post by throwmastr »

throwaway981 wrote: post #60
GrinningFool wrote: post #39

> It pisses me off to no end these developers have to out-think SQL and re-invent the whole damn new wheel for "efficiency's" sake. Worked with someone who did this a couple years ago. I keep trying to get him to explain why he was reinventing sql, and never did get a clear answer to that. > just waggles their dick around saying Sorry to be the one to say it, but I don't think that part was necessary or appropriate t…

There seems to be a culture clash on HN. On one side there is California, where "dick wagging" is an unnecessary instance of gendered language, certain to drive women out of the tech industry. On the other side there's the rest of the world, where being offended by "dick wagging" seems dazzlingly childish. It's just a penis, most grown men and women know what they are and observe their motions on a daily basis. In Bh…

So now we have learn what to say and what not to say from feminists ? If you take offense at every single fucking thing that's your problem. Want Women in tech, say this and that. I won't. No one with descent background is explicitly trying to keep women from entering tech. In fact, if you are deep in tech no one has time to even make deliberate efforts that.

STOP thought policing.

Look , this is free country. While I appreciate your sentiment please don't come here for thought policing. Everyone has freedom to say what they want. If you start taking offense for every single thing written I think you are in wrong place. Go back to Reddit.

Look , what you have done ? Discussion was good going on with everyone expressing what can and can not be good with SQL and Database until you brought up this stupid gender bias thing. Then there are at least 10 replies explaining why GP's comment is okay or not okay.

Please get off from this site and don't waste our time.

Dang - You seem to be moderating HN. Can we have policies in place for removing such comments ? It is unnecessary distraction.

Re: Cache is the new RAM

#90

Post by cpncrunch »

icelancer wrote: post #30
temuze wrote: post #7

The database I want still doesn't exist. Here's what I want: - Easy sharding, a la Elasticsearch. I want virtual shards that can be moved node to node and an easy to understand primary/replica shard system for write/reads. I want my DB nodes to find each other with an easy discovery system with plugins for AWS/Azure/Digital Ocean etc. - Fucking SQL. I don't want to learn your stupid DSL. I want to give coworkers a SQ…

I have a LOT fewer requests than you, but this one is just so irritating: >- Fucking SQL. I don't want to learn your stupid DSL. I want to give coworkers a SQL client a say "go! You already know how to use this!". If I want a new feature, then dammit, build on top of SQL the way PostgreSQL has. Odds are, regardless if its some JSON API or SQL, my language will have a client for it that will be superior than writing r…

That's an amusing (and incorrect) assumption that the smartest people are making >$150k.
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