One thing I don't quite understand - why these companies won't move to other countries with better privacy? Is it only because of huge bureaucratic and logistical effort that would be required, or are there some laws which prevent "emigration" of companies, or is it that they would have to provide such data anyway, if they want to operate in US too (but then at least people in other countries would be beyond US gov's harassment)?
Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
81–90 of 131 posts
Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Canaries are not well-settled in law [ https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/04/warrant-canary-faq ].
Correct. However: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6680780 or: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8337001 Another law of successful (or at least apparently effective) "law hacking": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_in... Common law systems really aren't as simple as "only intent matters, absolutely nothing clever is tolerated" , as many suggest. The problem is mostly that, whenever comp…
I've always thought that law attempts to assert its primacy over law by ignoring it.
Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
#83One thing I don't quite understand - why these companies won't move to other countries with better privacy? Is it only because of huge bureaucratic and logistical effort that would be required, or are there some laws which prevent "emigration" of companies, or is it that they would have to provide such data anyway, if they want to operate in US too (but then at least people in other countries would be beyond US gov's…
How could you run a startup outside San Francisco? /sarcasm
More seriously, if you decided you could do this in (say) Switzerland, you'd have to move the company there and all of the admin staff to prevent them being suborned by the NSA. Most countries you'd want to move to have lengthy immigration procedures. The cost is huge, not just financial but cutting yourself off. Remember, if you truly annoy the intelligence agencies, you'll go on the no-fly or visa denial lists, and you'll never be able to visit your family again. Just look at Snowden.
It's a political problem. No surveillance without acountability.
Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
The real issue is that in programming, you get to define stuff unambiguously and quantitatively. Take a law like: No driving a motor vehicle in the park. Obviously that means no cars, but does a wheelchair count? How about a power assisted bike?
And those signs aren't even what was intended. "Motor vehicle"? Oh, okay, then my Nissan Leaf is not allowed because it has an electric motor, but my motorcycle is okay because it uses an gasoline engine , not a motor. But I know what they meant, and keep my motorcycle off the bicycle trail. However, the pedant and software developer in me is bothered just a little when I read those signs.
> motorcycle
Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
#85The government’s position, the complaint said, “forces Twitter either to engage in speech that has been preapproved by government officials or else to refrain from speaking altogether.” Isn't that the definition of censorship? I'm surprised they don't actually use that word in the lawsuit: http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/201...
"Censorship" isn't unconstitutional (e.g. obscenities laws). Certain kinds of censorship may be, and they have specific names.
That's an interesting statement. I regard obscenities laws to be unconstitutional. Specifically, to be extremely anti-free speech and anti-free press (depending). All forms of censorship are unconstitutional and blatant violations of the first amendment.
Given the countless flawed or flat-out wrong positions the Supreme Court has taken over the centuries when it comes to individual rights, I think we can likely agree they are not always right in their conclusions.
Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
#86One thing I don't quite understand - why these companies won't move to other countries with better privacy? Is it only because of huge bureaucratic and logistical effort that would be required, or are there some laws which prevent "emigration" of companies, or is it that they would have to provide such data anyway, if they want to operate in US too (but then at least people in other countries would be beyond US gov's…
US companies of meaningful size that attempted to do so, would soon find new laws restricting their ability to leave.
Congress and the President moved quickly to stop tax inversion deals recently. They'd do the exact same thing on the basis of national security were major intelligence assets to attempt to leave.
The US Government will not give up the massive global information network it possesses in the way of Google / Apple / Facebook / Twitter / Yahoo / Microsoft etc. Under no circumstances will companies of this sort and value ever be allowed to crawl out from under control of the US Government.
Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
But "bad guys" have no way of knowing that an increment of a digit is in any way related to their actions. Also, disclosures tend to be time-delayed, further obsfucating what was actually being investigated.
They don't have to know for certain. They just need enough data from multiple sources to get nervous and suddenly the whole investigation is shot.
You mean criminals might stop doing what they are doing because they know they are being investigated? Fantastic! Don't we want them to stop?
Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who says they'd be tried in a courtroom that even has a jury. Remember, we now know there are courtrooms with no juries.
They're the rooms no banker who helped cause a global economic crisis will ever see the inside of, but if you reveal that you have been required to turn over information to a secret government with a secret court against every principal of the Constitution, well... I imagine you'd know the color of the wallpaper pretty well.
It's not just the bankers that were spared of course, all the politicians that were partially responsible for the economic melt-down were shielded as well. From Greenspan to Clinton, nobody in D.C. was touched either.
The Fed has caused more destruction of wealth in the last 20 years than all the private sector bankers in US history have combined. Not a single person from the Fed will ever, nor has ever, gotten into trouble for it. They can destroy the US economy with insane rates, QE, stimulus measures, you name it. They can debase the dollar and steal trillions in savings from average Americans. They can encourage incredibly dangerous asset inflation and speculative behavior with 'free' money policies, and nobody will ever do anything about it.
Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
The real issue is that in programming, you get to define stuff unambiguously and quantitatively. Take a law like: No driving a motor vehicle in the park. Obviously that means no cars, but does a wheelchair count? How about a power assisted bike?
And those signs aren't even what was intended. "Motor vehicle"? Oh, okay, then my Nissan Leaf is not allowed because it has an electric motor, but my motorcycle is okay because it uses an gasoline engine , not a motor. But I know what they meant, and keep my motorcycle off the bicycle trail. However, the pedant and software developer in me is bothered just a little when I read those signs.
You can probably find an online copy of the city ordinances that specify exactly what "motor vehicle" means in that context. An interesting thing I noticed in one city is that it's technically illegal to drive certain (stock, unmodified) models of car above 3000RPM due to noise ordinances prohibiting exhaust bypass systems.
Re: Twitter sues U.S. government over ability to disclose surveillance orders
#90Twitter is a medium at the forefront of democracy movements worldwide. If there were any site worth standing down surveillance in pursuit of a larger foreign policy goal then I would have thought Twitter would be that site. Instead, I'm now imagining young staffers at various US agencies squirming with dumb chills as senior policy makers articulate Twitter's threat to US national security or law enforcement objective…
Twitter is also used to manipulate democracy movements. A while ago there was an FBO bid posted to Hacker News for sock puppet software to manage social media accounts and multiple apparent writing styles.