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Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

independent.co.uk

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Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#81

Post by Mikeb85 »

cluthe wrote: post #79
Mikeb85 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, you must not have read anything about the HK situation, because they ARE being given the right to vote, candidates just have to be approved by Beijing (which is the problem). Second, do you really think there's no democratic mechanisms at all in China? The communist party still needs to chose leaders from within itself... And I'd argue that it's better to know one is under a dictatorship than to think o…

I'm from Hong Kong, I'm sitting in Central Hong Kong right now. Read again what I said. If you think being able to vote between 2 or 3 CCP approved candidates is a real democratic system then I don't know what to say to you.

No less democratic than being able to choose Democrat or GOP. Freedom in the US is an illusion.

Do you think any amount of protests in the US would change anything at all? The protesters would be arrested, beaten, then charged with crimes and convicted by corrupt judges, and the whole memory of the affair would be swiftly swept under the rug by the mainstream media, who would be pressured by various government agencies to forget about it...

Protests don't change a damn thing in western countries, because the whole illusion is propagated by idiots who buy into the government propaganda. What did Occupy Wall Street change? Not a damn thing. Ferguson? Again, nothing.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#82

Post by zby »

khc wrote: post #38
ant_sz wrote: post #33

I'm from Chinese mainland, a student at Shanghai.there is not even a piece of information about this leaked to the mainstream media. many of my classmates managed to get information from multiple sources but more have no idea what happened. it's quite strange that the blocking turns a political event into a technical one. I'm not a 100% supporter for the protest, but I extremely dislike the government's passion of bl…

I've seen screenshots of mainland media reporting the event as a massive celebration: https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t31.0-8/106...

That is not too bad - they'll probably not deploy army to crush celebrations after all.

By the way - there is a great democratic potential in play: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201105/how...

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#83

Post by Zarel »

crazychrome wrote: post #80
Shad0w59 wrote: post #22

The amount of hyperbole in this thread (and in the protest) is unbelievable. Protesters are quick to talk this up as the next Tiananmen Square when in fact looking at the ground it's nothing like it. You just need to look at Hong Kong culture to see that this is being overblown. It's the HK style, there's no middle ground, it's either the end of the world or nothing worth mentioning. Of course the people have a right…

There is a single rule to see tell the true motivation of a protest: is the biggest protest sign written in English (if the general public in the area/country not native English speakers)? If yes, it's probably a show to leverage CNN/BBC. Otherwise, why would protestors use a language unable to deliver messages to their own people? According to this pic: http://www.popo8.com/host/data/201409/28/3/f864d6c.jpg , this O…

Cantonese (written in Traditional Chinese) and English are the de facto official languages of Hong Kong. I'm not sure how well your rule applies.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#84

Post by jpatokal »

skrebbel wrote: post #62
gurkendoktor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so this is not their intended goal, but this protest has probably been pretty effective in waking up Taiwan. It would be even more effective if the Taiwanese media wouldn't self-censor itself so brutally to avoid "trouble". (Look at the goddamn China Times, where the protests are the second-to-last dot in the slideshow!! http://www.chinatimes.com/ )

I don't know anything about Taiwan. Could you explain why these papers self-censor so heavily?

It's complicated, and I'm not Taiwanese, but briefly -- Taiwanese politics is split into two camps, "pan-blue" (pro-Chinese) and "pan-green" (pro-independence). Taiwan's economy relies very heavily on good relations with China, so the pan-blues do the best they can to butter up China, while the pan-greens try to swim in the opposite direction as fast as they can without incurring an outright invasion. 3 of Taiwan's 4 biggest newspapers are controlled by the pan-blues, so they self-censor (to varying degrees) things that reflect negatively on China, like teargassing peaceful protesters in HK.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#85

Post by lotsofmangos »

crazychrome wrote: post #78
wyuenho wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Negotiation: We have been doing that for at least 30 years. Economy: I in general agree but let's not forget most of China depends on the banks in Hong Kong for lending. There's a lot of capital at stake here.

right. how about previous 150 years? woo, I forget, the Queen sent a Governor who suddenly realise HK needed democracy!

The people in Hong Kong demanded the democratic reforms, however they never got universal suffrage while an outpost of the UK, which is something the UK should quite frankly be utterly ashamed of.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#86

Post by lotsofmangos »

crazychrome wrote: post #80
Shad0w59 wrote: post #22

The amount of hyperbole in this thread (and in the protest) is unbelievable. Protesters are quick to talk this up as the next Tiananmen Square when in fact looking at the ground it's nothing like it. You just need to look at Hong Kong culture to see that this is being overblown. It's the HK style, there's no middle ground, it's either the end of the world or nothing worth mentioning. Of course the people have a right…

There is a single rule to see tell the true motivation of a protest: is the biggest protest sign written in English (if the general public in the area/country not native English speakers)? If yes, it's probably a show to leverage CNN/BBC. Otherwise, why would protestors use a language unable to deliver messages to their own people? According to this pic: http://www.popo8.com/host/data/201409/28/3/f864d6c.jpg , this O…

Judging from your analysis, you couldn't tell the true motivation of a protest if it bit you on the arse.

Protests are shows. That's why they call them demonstrations.

And given signs are for informing people outside the protest, it is no surprise that folk will write an English one if they know there will be an English speaking news crew around.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#87

Post by spacehunt »

crazychrome wrote: post #78
wyuenho wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Negotiation: We have been doing that for at least 30 years. Economy: I in general agree but let's not forget most of China depends on the banks in Hong Kong for lending. There's a lot of capital at stake here.

right. how about previous 150 years? woo, I forget, the Queen sent a Governor who suddenly realise HK needed democracy!

It's more like the previous 150 years were ruled by benevolent dictators like Linus so relatively few people complained, but now it's turning into something like XFree86 so people instead wanted to become like Debian.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#88

Post by curiousgeorge »

ant_sz wrote: post #33

I'm from Chinese mainland, a student at Shanghai.there is not even a piece of information about this leaked to the mainstream media. many of my classmates managed to get information from multiple sources but more have no idea what happened. it's quite strange that the blocking turns a political event into a technical one. I'm not a 100% supporter for the protest, but I extremely dislike the government's passion of bl…

Why are you anything but a 100% supporter of democratic self-governance?

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#89

Post by JoeAltmaier »

curiousgeorge wrote: post #88
ant_sz wrote: post #33

I'm from Chinese mainland, a student at Shanghai.there is not even a piece of information about this leaked to the mainstream media. many of my classmates managed to get information from multiple sources but more have no idea what happened. it's quite strange that the blocking turns a political event into a technical one. I'm not a 100% supporter for the protest, but I extremely dislike the government's passion of bl…

Why are you anything but a 100% supporter of democratic self-governance?

One reasonable train of thought is, that in a country containing a mix of several cultures with sharp divides, democracy will make 2nd-class citizens out of somebody - the tyranny of the majority will seriously rule.

There are many forms of citizen-participatory government possible. A republic for instance (what you meant when you said democracy?) can have houses formed in a variety of ways to insure minorities are heard.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#90

Post by Terr_ »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #81
cluthe wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Hong Kong, I'm sitting in Central Hong Kong right now. Read again what I said. If you think being able to vote between 2 or 3 CCP approved candidates is a real democratic system then I don't know what to say to you.

No less democratic than being able to choose Democrat or GOP. Freedom in the US is an illusion. Do you think any amount of protests in the US would change anything at all? The protesters would be arrested, beaten, then charged with crimes and convicted by corrupt judges, and the whole memory of the affair would be swiftly swept under the rug by the mainstream media, who would be pressured by various government agenci…

> No less democratic than being able to choose Democrat or GOP.

Wrong, it's much less democratic because it isn't just (A) which names are preprinted on the ballot or (B) candidates likely to be elected. No, you literally cannot make a valid choice beyond those pre-approved by Beijing.

> Protests don't change a damn thing in western countries

You're telling me that every single change to the US since ~1870 has been from something other than protests?

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