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US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

theguardian.com

81–90 of 166 posts

Re: US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

#81
Ugh. The answer is not municipally owned ISPs.

Sure it's easy for a municipal ISP to have "cheap" rates when you consider that they are taxing authorities and don't have to run a profit. How exactly would this service be put into place? It would take a massive capital investment by the municipality, full of opportunities for fraud. I live in a fairly small, highly liberal town and yet in the past few years we've had financial scandal after financial scandal, from city staffers abusing credit cards to money losing investments in everything from technology parks to parking garages to outright fraud by contractors with inside partners in the government.

And what does your typical city council know about running an ISP business? Nothing. Where I live, they can't even stay ahead of the pothole repair. It takes a team of a dozen laborers a month to install a block of sidewalk. The incompetence and inefficiency is just staggering. I'm simply unwilling to believe that they would do any better trying to offer internet service. I also don't buy the arugment that municipalites provide better "utility" services than businesses can. My parents lived in a neighborhood with poor water pressure for nearly two decades before the city finally got around to installing a booster pump station that resolved the problem.

I'm not in favor of the status quo either. Regulated monopolies have given us the current mess with indifferent and expensive providers, product packaging that forces you to buy services you don't want, and little competition.

Remove the monopolies. Let providers provide backbone, last mile, or both. Let them buy and sell bandwidth in bulk, and compete over customers from house to house. I don't see anything else that can possibly resolve the problem.

Re: US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

#82
> “The success of public broadband is a mixed record, with numerous examples of failures,” USTelecom said in a blog post. “With state taxpayers on the financial hook when a municipal broadband network goes under, it is entirely reasonable for state legislatures to be cautious in limiting or even prohibiting that activity.”

That's the cable companies for you - always looking out for the consumer. It's almost as if they see themselves as a public utility.

Re: US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

#83
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How fast does your internet have to be for you to do your job?

Naturally, at least as fast as the other guy or gal competing for the same job.

If all you're doing is moving text around then faster internet isn't going to help any. Unless you're streaming video or doing a few other high bandwidth activities then even really shitty broadband is going to service your needs just fine.

Re: US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

#84
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unconstrained corporatism.

literally state sanctioned monopolies there was a website posted to HN a while ago that described the hurdles for municipal fiber in each state, i don't have the link any more, but it seems very relevant to this discussion

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8065207 ?

Re: US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

#85
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and municipal infrastructure projects are a disaster outside a few well-managed cities like NY citation needed... I know government has a reputation for being wasteful and corrupt, but weird for you to defend NYC.

The American Society of Civil Engineers says that U.S. infrastructure is underfunded to the tune of $3.6 trillion: http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org . People like to compare municipal broadband to municipal water, but the ASCE gives our water and wastewater systems a grade of 'D'. I defend NYC because as corrupt as it may be, over the last 20-30 years it has a pretty good record of getting municipal projects do…

I thought Shirley Jackson spent most of her last term jawing about the sewers?

Re: US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

#86
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it completely distasteful the number of laws that prevent other entities from passing laws in certain domains. Washington state has a law that prevents cities from legislating any form of rent control. Are you serious? Rent control laws are awful, destroy the incentive to maintain housing stock or build new housing stock, and ultimately raise rents for everyone except the lucky few who can get rent controlle…

Honestly I think you're way off base on rent control. I'd love to know what experiences you've had with rent control that have led you to such a negative POV? Perhaps living in Philly, as you profile mentions, has blunted you to some of the benefits of RC in housing-crunched cities. The biggest fallacy I hear from people who don't live in one of these housing-crunched cities is the line.. everyone except the lucky fe…

    everyone except the lucky few who can get
    rent controlled apartments
No, that's not the problem. As you say, rent control can't be both pervasive and rare at the same time. The real problems with rent control are:

* It's hard to move. Say you change jobs and now work in a different part of the city, or your kids move out, or you'd like to move in with a partner. Normally one of the benefits of renting is that you can move, but with rent control that means switching to a place that's much more expensive.

* Landlords benefit from having their long-time tenants leave. Without rent control landlords love long term tenants because they're reliable and they mean less work finding people for the apartment. Rent control reverses this, and the landlord loses the incentive to upgrade the apartment and otherwise keep the tenant happy. Yes, the landlord is being a jerk when they do it, but sometimes the best fix for widespread jerk-ness is changing the incentives.

* It keeps out outsiders. People who want to live in your city enough that they're willing to give up their existing local connections and start over in your city are really valuable, and rent control means they pay a lot more than people who've lived in the city longer.

* It depresses new construction. Yes, I know new buildings aren't subject to rent control, but in a place where everything is already built out you can't put up a new building without taking down an old one. Rent control means you either have legal restrictions saying you can't replace buildings, or you have protests against people doing this and displacing existing tenants. But in a growing city, without new construction housing is going to get more and more expensive.

* Rent control puts off dealing with the problem of housing costs. If everyone in SF rented, and everyone had to pay market rates, then there would be the political backing for changes that would make housing more affordable. Rent control means that the long-time community members who would be best at this political change don't really feel much urgency because they have nice cheap places with rents set a decade or two ago. (But to be fair, homeownership is also a problem here, because rents and property values move together and homeowners want their property to become more valuable.)

    RE investors here, where a rent controlled 2br apartment
    will set you back at least $3k a month in the city, are
    doing quite alright. They don't seem too desperately in
    need of expanded protections under the law.
Rent control hurts renters. I don't care about real estate investors. That $3k isn't why we need rent control, it's because we have rent control.

Re: US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

#87
post #38
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see north east US, Main = 14 MBPS or 0.1 MBPS faster than Mongolia woot! Comparing nations to states is ridiculous. However, if you read the report it's damming with faint praise. "the average connection speeds seen in the United States and Mexico remained more than twice as fast as the next fastest country" Sure, if you discount everyone that's better than you then you can call yourself #1 at anything. PS: Not…

Maine has a population density of 43 people per square mile, less than 1/10th the density of the U.K. or Germany. Maine is just Northeast's version of Montana.

The local electric coop is plowing fiber in Taos, NM. They don't have a problem serving a VERY low-density region.

Re: US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

#88
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without power or water your basic standard of living drops significantly. Without high speed internet you....don't get netflix? I don't really see why lumping all these things together in the same category makes sense.

Without the internet you cannot function well in the economy - many many deals (including those for utility companies as well as retailers) are only available either online, or if you found them online and then mentioned them in the shop/on the phone. The internet is an information network that gives consumers nearly perfect information about price; which translates to a much more ideal market (in economic jargon,) w…

You conveniently left out the words "high speed." Everything you talk about can be done just fine even on the mediocre broadband speeds that people in this thread are complaining about.

Re: US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

#89
post #4

> Chattanooga has the largest high-speed internet service in the US, offering customers access to speeds of 1 gigabit per second – about 50 times faster than the US average. The service, provided by municipally owned EPB, has sparked a tech boom in the city and attracted international attention. EPB is now petitioning the FCC to expand its territory. Comcast and others have previously sued unsuccessfully to stop EPB’…

I agree it's cheap by US standards. My 100 Mpbs (symmetric, fiber) is $42. It's in Sweden though.

Re: US cable giants calls on FCC to block cities' expansion of high-speed internet

#90
post #81

Ugh. The answer is not municipally owned ISPs. Sure it's easy for a municipal ISP to have "cheap" rates when you consider that they are taxing authorities and don't have to run a profit. How exactly would this service be put into place? It would take a massive capital investment by the municipality, full of opportunities for fraud. I live in a fairly small, highly liberal town and yet in the past few years we've had…

Without contesting the rest of your argument, I'd argue that these rates are not unreasonable or artificially low.

I pay $42 for 100 Mbit (symmetric, fiber), from a large Swedish ISP (without any government/taxpayer funding).

I think the issue in the US is that there is too much monopoly (and oligopoly), with ISPs lobbying [i.e. corruption] instead of competition.

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