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Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

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Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#81

Post by chimeracoder »

ap22213 wrote: post #60
awjr wrote: post #26

"War on drugs" is a terrible world affliction. Prohibition neither works nor is conducive to a better society. Governments should just tax and sell the drugs to the general public. Alcohol is considered to be the most harmful drug but is legal because it can be taxed, controlled, and makes money. ( http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus... ) Governments should also support people that want drugs…

I don't see it quite so cynically. Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned. Most people that I've met (who may not be considered alcoholics) certainly have some level of alcohol dependency. And, I'm being loose here with the word 'dependency', but in the last year, I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drink…

> Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned.

There is outrage and 'civil unrest' in some sort surrounding other drugs; the difference is the communities in which it manifests.

The war on drugs very disproportionately affects people along lines of race and socioeconomic status[0]. These communities certainly are outraged at how their families and communities are being destroyed (literally) by the prohibition of these drugs and the societal ramifications that go along with the prohibition. The difference is that they're not in a position to voice that outrage as loudly.

Remember why prohibition of alcohol was repealed - wealthy taxpayers were mad that their tax bills went up after the passage of the 18th amendment (the government could no longer make revenue off of alcohol taxes). This is exactly why initiatives to legalize marijuana in Colorado (Amendment 64), Washington, and California (Prop 19) have used the language 'tax and regulate'. It's not some crazy new idea - it's literally the same tactic that succeeded in passing the 21st amendment!

[0] http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindn...

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#82

Post by chimeracoder »

coldtea wrote: post #42
Xylakant wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, actually not. Alcohol is a potent poison and kills cells - hence the use as desinfectant. The physical damage caused by alcohol abuse rival and surpass most illegal substances.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/... Oh, and they controlled for the obvious correlations too, like lifestyle differences etc.

Withdrawal from alcohol can literally kill you[0]. Withdrawal from opiates can also cause similar withdrawal symptoms, but is not fatal[1].

There are many ways to judge the statement 'most harmful drug', so there's no bright line, but that's a pretty big mark against alcohol.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delerium_tremens [1] Ibid.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#84

Post by stonemetal »

awildone wrote: post #44
codeshaman wrote: post #27

Just back from Boom Festival in Portugal, where personal drug use is decriminalized. There was almost no police/security at the gates or inside the festival, although selling drugs was not tolerated (eg. people selling on the festival grounds were kindly asked to leave). There were 42.000 people from 152 countries and most of them used some kind of substance or plant there (marijuana being the most abundantly and ope…

Portugal is certainly one step in the right direction. I lived and worked there for three months and it's all very relaxed. Cops don't really care about people rolling joints or even doing lines of coke in public if there's a party (and if you are in Portugal, there will be). Quietly puffing a joint while walking down the street in the middle of the day is cool as well. I actually never saw the cops interfere with an…

>even though there are cops everywhere. ... you will be offered drugs ten times a day while just walking down the street. It's all fake, they're just out to scam you and steal your stuff, and they're pretty good at it.

That is a step in the right direction? What was it like before beaten by the cops and robbed 10 times a day?

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#85

Post by zanny »

clarkmoody wrote: post #77
tim333 wrote: post #49

>“This is an experiment,” Shumlin says. “And we’re not going to really know the results for a while.” Good stuff. I really wish those in power would more often try a scientific/engineering approach to see what works rather than politicians shouting about war on whatever.

This is a fantastic argument for strong states' rights and less-overbearing / centralized policy from Washington. Let the states be compared against one another and measure the results: if heroin abuse skyrockets in Vermont, then other states could avoid their policy mistakes. If something works incredibly well in a couple states, then it would be appropriate to implement broad, federal rules codifying the success in…

You are detailing a consequence of an international crisis, not so much some novel concept in the US.

This problem is also starting to show up in the EU, since there is pressure to adopt monolithic policies across member states.

But the concept is not complicated - you should give people mobility, so that they can go wherever there are policies they most agree with. That is it.

The problem is that international mobility is crippled by bureaucratic immigration policies in addition to the classic cultural and language barriers. Thus, postulating that states should be more independent in their policies is right, but it needs to acknowledge that fundamentally it does not matter if it is states in a country or individual countries or something like city states or homesteading, all that is required is the ability for individuals to migrate where their ideologies and the states match.

And the modern world is often simultaneously the best and worst time for such mobility. In terms of real physical barriers, there are pretty much none - flight has advanced sufficiently it is not prohibitive in cost for many people in the world to realistically save up enough to fly anywhere else. Simultaneously, in the past it was much easier to just "cross boarders", where the bureaucracy and monitoring of citizenship was much reduced.

Hopefully we progress to minimize or remove the latter, because it is the best outcome for everyone except those who want to prevent mobility to hold power over groups of people who would not stay if they had a choice.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#86

Post by warfangle »

stonemetal wrote: post #84
awildone wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portugal is certainly one step in the right direction. I lived and worked there for three months and it's all very relaxed. Cops don't really care about people rolling joints or even doing lines of coke in public if there's a party (and if you are in Portugal, there will be). Quietly puffing a joint while walking down the street in the middle of the day is cool as well. I actually never saw the cops interfere with an…

>even though there are cops everywhere. ... you will be offered drugs ten times a day while just walking down the street. It's all fake, they're just out to scam you and steal your stuff, and they're pretty good at it. That is a step in the right direction? What was it like before beaten by the cops and robbed 10 times a day?

In 1999, Portugal had the highest rate of HIV amongst IV drug users in the EU. There were 2,000 new cases a year - in a country of 10 million. Almost half of new cases were among IV drug users.

Gotta understand something about Portugal: 'til '74, it was a dictatorship. Then it was a military junta. It finally became a democracy in '76. Then, a little under a decade later, when cheap heroin flooded the world. The US saw it in the 80's too.

But it was much, much worse there.

> What was it like before[,] beaten by the cops and robbed 10 times a day?

Had nothing to do with that. It was about 'the population has an endemic drug problem leading to widespread ennui and HIV/AIDs, and even some of the harshest drug laws in Europe are doing absolutely nil to quell it.'

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#87

Post by jusben1369 »

blueking wrote: post #31

I wonder why the government needs to force everyone to hit a collective rock bottom before considering a new strategy. Throwing everyone involved in jail was a bad idea from day 1. What they need to do is manufacture and sell the drugs at cost to registered addicts. This way you destroy the business of the drug cartels and you insure your citizens are at least using pure drugs. Regardless of the legality of the use o…

Why does the government need to manufacture and sell the drugs at no cost? Why can't we just repeat what we do with alcohol and have it be produced by for profit businesses and then regulated and taxed etc to offset the health and educational costs of said activities?

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#88

Post by yarrel »

clarkmoody wrote: post #77
tim333 wrote: post #49

>“This is an experiment,” Shumlin says. “And we’re not going to really know the results for a while.” Good stuff. I really wish those in power would more often try a scientific/engineering approach to see what works rather than politicians shouting about war on whatever.

This is a fantastic argument for strong states' rights and less-overbearing / centralized policy from Washington. Let the states be compared against one another and measure the results: if heroin abuse skyrockets in Vermont, then other states could avoid their policy mistakes. If something works incredibly well in a couple states, then it would be appropriate to implement broad, federal rules codifying the success in…

I thought states' rights was just a code phrase for racism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States'_rights#Controversy

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#89

Post by toomuchtodo »

coldtea wrote: post #42
Xylakant wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, actually not. Alcohol is a potent poison and kills cells - hence the use as desinfectant. The physical damage caused by alcohol abuse rival and surpass most illegal substances.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/... Oh, and they controlled for the obvious correlations too, like lifestyle differences etc.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus...

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#90

Post by mturmon »

amykhar wrote: post #40

The demographics of Vermont makes me curious. Many people say that the war on drugs is racially motivated in that more blacks and hispanics are prosecuted than whites. Vermont is 95% Caucasian. I wonder if this fact influenced the new policy in any way.

I think you're getting at something. The easier availability of prescription opiates (e.g., Dad's Vicodin for his bad back) has produced an addiction surge in middle-class communities. This is not just Vermont, but across the U.S.; I'm well aware that Vermont has a unique political culture that also factors in to how this played out.

In some places, this has turned out to result in significant high school heroin overdoses among well-off white folks, and significant heroin addiction among their parents.

If it's your kid or your neighbor, the "harm reduction" path starts to look a lot better than criminalization, and you start to see political viability for something that was radioactive before.

It hurts to admit it, but when you see political demagoguery in the U.S. (i.e., War on Drugs), looking for the racial angle is a good first strategy.

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