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Re: X to close

#81

Post by ANTSANTS »

teamonkey wrote: post #49
ntSean wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Japanese variants, he is correct. When Sony westernized the playstation controller, the O and X functionality was flipped. Sony is yet to comment on the reasons why.

It might be because of Sega's consoles, which were more popular in the US than they were in Japan, where Nintendo ruled. The Genesis' button layout was A,B,C arranged in a diagonal from bottom-left to top-right. A was usually 'accept'. The Dreamcast had a diamond with A at the bottom and B to the right. Nintendo's Famicom buttons read A,B from right-to-left, and that trend continued with the Super Famicom's diamond,…

As I said in another comment, almost every Megadrive game I've played lets you use both A and C for accept in menus, so you could use whichever orientation you were more comfortable with. I think anyone who started with Nintendo consoles would instinctually rest their thumb between B and C.

My guess is that Sony thought that X and O wouldn't have as obvious connotations outside of Japan, and figured that people would assume the button closest to the player (X) would be the OK button. In practice, I have found that people with very little exposure to Japanese culture still have the same association with X and O in their heads and get confused when using Playstations ("you press X to accept???"), so I'll curse Sony forever for this stupid regional change.

Re: X to close

#82

Post by ANTSANTS »

cbhl wrote: post #46
ntSean wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Japanese variants, he is correct. When Sony westernized the playstation controller, the O and X functionality was flipped. Sony is yet to comment on the reasons why.

I thought the popular rumor was this was to help people with Nintendo 64 muscle memory, where the X corresponded (loosely) with where the A button was positioned, and the O corresponded to where the B was positioned.

You're wrong on both counts. B is still to the left of A on N64 controllers, and the PlayStation launched a year before the N64 in America.

Re: X to close

#83

Post by gpvos »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #44
lotsofmangos wrote: post #34

RiscOS had the x as well in the late 1980s edit - Here's Arthur, the precursor to RiscOS in ~ 1986 - http://www.rougol.jellybaby.net/meetings/2012/PaulFellows/10... - It has nice x icons.

Here's a cleaner shot: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Risc_OS_311_De... Until the NewLook sprite set, it looks more like a weird flower shape than an X. Here it is with NewLook: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/full/riscos... Clearly now an X.

That's RISC OS 3, which is several years later. Arthur already had the X in 1987, see for example http://mobile.osnews.com/story.php/18941/mobile-opt-out.php . (Later than the 1985 find in Atari OS of the original article, but still interesting.)

As far as I know, Acorn's RISC OS also pioneered the icon bar and the context menu.

Re: X to close

#84

Post by LeoPanthera »

gpvos wrote: post #83
LeoPanthera wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a cleaner shot: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Risc_OS_311_De... Until the NewLook sprite set, it looks more like a weird flower shape than an X. Here it is with NewLook: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/full/riscos... Clearly now an X.

That's RISC OS 3, which is several years later. Arthur already had the X in 1987, see for example http://mobile.osnews.com/story.php/18941/mobile-opt-out.php . (Later than the 1985 find in Atari OS of the original article, but still interesting.) As far as I know, Acorn's RISC OS also pioneered the icon bar and the context menu.

I see that, but it's the same symbol as pre-NewLook RO3, and is only charitably described as an "X". It's more of a splat.

Re: X to close

#85

Post by pjmlp »

Windows versions prior to Windows 95 lacked an "X" button, but double clicking on the left menu icon would close the window.

A behavior still present in modern versions.

Re: X to close

#86

Post by gpvos »

tatterdemalion wrote: post #53
nwp90 wrote: post #5

No 'x' to close vi? Was that not always there? I've certainly been using it as long as I can remember; that's not to say it's always been there though - does anyone know when it was first available? Edit: seems Wordstar used X too, probably starting in 1978.

Nano also uses Ctrl+X to exit.

nano is from 1999, so hardly relevant.

Re: X to close

#87

Post by jzzskijj »

grimman wrote: post #78
jzzskijj wrote: post #61

Too bad, that popular Windows applications like Skype and Spotify have gone against this and made "X to minimize". And their making of Alt+F4 also to minimize drives me nuts.

Far from exclusive to them though, and it seems to be (/have been?) a very common thing for IM clients to do. I can live with it as long as the devs put in the appropriate options for the behavior you want, but I'm not happy about it.

I sort of understand the point for IM client, that people won't close it unintentionally. But that is solved by showing a dialog asking do you want to close. Breaking Alt+F4's functionality is such an abomination that it is impossible to understand the thought process behind the decision.

Re: X to close

#88

Post by praseodym »

Bahamut wrote: post #69
ekianjo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is much relevance in the Japanese argument. One funny detail is that Sony actually inverted in their games the meaning of Round and X for western markets -> making X act as "validate" and Round as "Back/Cancel", the exact opposite of what they do in Japan. As for "X being a true icon", I don't know. For me, it could stand as well as an abbreviation for "eXit" -> X. The AmigaOS Workbench used (and…

Was this true in all of their games? I know early PlayStation games did use O for confirm and X for cancel - even a few years into its lifetime, this was the case as Final Fantasy VII is an obvious example.

It depends on the game and possibly the console region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_(console)#Regional_...

Re: X to close

#90

Post by simias »

ekianjo wrote: post #72
Bahamut wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was this true in all of their games? I know early PlayStation games did use O for confirm and X for cancel - even a few years into its lifetime, this was the case as Final Fantasy VII is an obvious example.

Are you talking about the Japanese version of Final Fantasy VII or the western version ? I have the Japanese version at home, I can check quickly if needed.

Both versions use O to accept and X to cancel. In the european FFVIII hovewer it was switched around. I think only early and rushed ports of japanese titles used O to accept on the playstation.

It's still true today, for instance dark souls on the ps3 uses O to accept on the japanese version and X on the western.

I'm still not sure why Sony did that by the way. While I'm willing to believe that X strongly means "bad/false" in japanese, I don't feel like it really means "accept" in western cultures as far as I know. When the playstation came out I don't think I would have had a lot of trouble accepting O for accept and X for cancel.

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