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The Middle East Friendship Chart

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Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hamas won free and fair elections. Peace must come from negotiations with Hamas; it can't be predicated on their destruction.

Well, yeah, except for the slight part about how they're a terrorist organisation? I mean, the Quarter (the Quartet (United States, Russia, United Nations, and European Union) basically said, we can recognise you, but you have to commit to non-violence etc. And Hamas was like, no, screw you guys, we're going to keep rocketing and bombing all the civilians we like...I mean, Israel's going to cave eventually, if we kee…

"[The other side is] going to cave eventually, if we keep shooting rockets at their citizens" is exactly the logic Bibi is using with the current campaign in Gaza.

It's absurd and insanely biased to pressure only one side of an armed conflict to adopt non-violence. Take a look at the death toll of the conflict: the fact that more pressure is on Hamas than Israel to "commit to non-violence etc." from various actors like the Quartet is a sign of how biased those actors truly are.

I've been downvoted, presumably because people seem to believe "we need to bomb the other side / wipe them out in order to begin to discuss peace" mentality but that's been the predominant strategy for decades and it hasn't gotten far. Hamas rose to popularity in the OPT because they were seen as an institution that was providing social services (hospitals, schools, etc.) and wasn't as corrupt at the local level as the PA. If you take a 30-year view, Hamas went from enjoying support from the Israeli military as a counterweight to the PLO to being the reason Israel claims they can't have any productive dialogue with the PA. It's morally bankrupt.

Predicating negotiations on capitulation of the other side (in terms of things like the Hamas charter, recognition, non-violence, what have you) isn't diplomacy, it's the complete absence thereof.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#83
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If cultures interact a lot, they often end up with the same religion anyway. This is what people always seem to forget. "Diversity" within a culture does not bring diversity, ironically, but merely causes one side to be assimilated into the other, losing it's distinct identity.

Not necessarily. India for example was ruled primarily by Muslim rulers for over a thousand years but still ended up with a huge Hindu population and a significant Muslim population. If you consider the whole of South Asia, that "Diversity" in religion is even more stark. Since this region has almost 2 Billion people living, it can't be considered as different. At the same time, you do have a good point. When you con…

> India for example was ruled primarily by Muslim rulers for over a thousand years

Factually incorrect. India as a whole (esp. south India) was never under complete Islamic rule, let alone for a 1000 yrs. The Delhi Sultanate started around 1200 and British colonialism around 1700. That's around 500 years of Muslim rule esp. in north India.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#85
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i agree, at least to a point, with you, but (non-rhetorical question): what are some examples of groups with purely cultural, that is non-religious, differences who fight with same violence we see in the Middle East and other places of ethnic/religious conflict?

Well, all you have to do is look back a few years in Europe. Until the US enforced peace in Europe, almost every country has been at war at some point or the other. WW2, WW1, 7 years war, 100 years war etc... Now you could argue that some of it was religious (Catholic vs Protestant), but in general it would be political. What you see in the Middle East isn't a phenomena that's tied to that region but it just so happe…

Not to mention the American civil war, which had only superfluous regligious motivation (the interpretation of slavery in the Bible). I am European and haven't read in detail about this conflict, but my impression is that it was to a large degree caused by cultural disagreement and to a lesser extent about territory. >600,000 dead.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#86
This chart is deceptive because it focuses on details of micro relationships while ignoring alignment of factions with global powers vying for control over resources and political influence, which has been stirring this pot on and off for thousands of years.

The western media portrays these battles as isolated internal disputes, and while there are very serious regional disputes, they are influenced by external powers like the US and Russia. Similar to the way in previous epochs groups like Muslim or Roman empires affected outcomes or took advantage of regional conflicts.

It is a crucible. I believe that the biggest driver is still fossil fuels. Yes, solar and other systems are rapidly replacing a portion of the energy demand, but still, the critical need for oil cannot be understated. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_consum.... You can see that this is quite an unequal distribution. The need to maintain that is what puts pressure on that region and causes regional animosities to be taken advantage of in order to move power over to groups siding with dominant forces.

Even though solar and other energy sources are gaining ground, the industrial reliance on fossil fuels is a much tougher nut to crack, and I actually believe that creating viable industrial production processes based on bio-fuels or significantly different chemistry is the key to 'peace in the Middle East'. Obviously, bad blood between groups going back thousands of years does not go away just because someone invented a non-fossil-fuel-based industrial precursor, but the motivation for stirring up those conflicts in order to further political power of one group gets reduced.

There are other aspects to this aside from fossil fuels. The fire for the crucible is fueled generally by the global power struggle which has other aspects like currency domination. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetary_hegemony or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Great_Game.

For some people, for example, those who read western media which is full of talk of local "evil dictators" and "terrorists", framing things this way will be very controversial. My next paragraph will probably be even more controversial for everyone.

I believe that hegemony and centralized control (at least on a physical regional level) could someday be supplanted by global cyber-states. In other words, the borders are not dictated so much by the map or actual physical areas, but by alignments with global systems of political power and organization, connected by internets. There will likely be multiple internets controlled by different global factions, since controlling these internets is key to controlling the global organizations.

Technologies like advanced 3d printing (eventually moving into the area of programmable matter), and free information flow may democratize force so that power over life and death, and therefore ultimate political control, moves from central authorities into the hands of individuals and more regional groups. At the same time, this type of technology could enable the global super-cyberstates as it would enable any group with sufficient control of a net to nearly instantly muster military assets at any point around the world.

I can go so far as to frame all of this as a need for good tools and systems for knowledge management and securing human needs, with the two interacting.

One of the core problems for knowledge management systems is how to promote an efficient, integrated, holistic view of the system, while still providing a strong capability for the evolution and maintenance of divergent branches or systems which evolve in new and beneficial directions. Or just, divergent branches which allow localized freedom in the knowledge graph, which may later lead in beneficial directions.

An example of this is different standards or platforms competing for dominance in technology. Based on a certain platform of solutions and set of common assumptions, a set of new problems arises, and many different groups and individuals solve those problems in relative isolation. In order to move on to solving the next set of problems, or for the overall group to gain the advantages of the new solutions in a way that integrates with previous efforts, a certain solution set is selected.

The particular process by which solutions are selected and integrated into the system, or multiple interacting systems, affects everyone working towards the advancement or maintenance of the systems greatly.

Github is a concrete example of this.

There seems to be a tendency towards a very small number of systems which exhibit high coupling and low cohesion. But maybe that view is too mechanistic and low-level, and a higher level view which better incorporates abstraction has a different problem.

Creating an abstraction prunes redundant solutions but also often discards less generally relevant information that may however be important in certain circumstances. Abstractions are powerful because their hierarchical structure allows individual nodes to leverage aggregate powers of branches. This hierarchical structure is also a disadvantage though in terms of the reliance that leaves have on the integrity of each branch.

Compositional rather than hierarchical structures can provide the same power of abstraction without the brittleness and central-point-of-failure that hierarchies have.

It seems though that more compositional networked structures tend to converge towards what are effectively hierarchies.

Anyway, I think that there must be some tools or processes or perspectives that would provide for somehow more optimal evolutions of structures. Probably some that are not discovered or in common use. In case anyone read all of this and knows of some relevant links, please let me know.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#87
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, all you have to do is look back a few years in Europe. Until the US enforced peace in Europe, almost every country has been at war at some point or the other. WW2, WW1, 7 years war, 100 years war etc... Now you could argue that some of it was religious (Catholic vs Protestant), but in general it would be political. What you see in the Middle East isn't a phenomena that's tied to that region but it just so happe…

Not to mention the American civil war, which had only superfluous regligious motivation (the interpretation of slavery in the Bible). I am European and haven't read in detail about this conflict, but my impression is that it was to a large degree caused by cultural disagreement and to a lesser extent about territory. >600,000 dead.

Great example. Thanks.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#88
It's pretty simple. Any country which is receiving massive US aid is friends with other countries receiving massive US aid. In some cases the frienship is a sort of "secret" (eg. Saudi Arabia and Israel) or "complicated" because officially, for appearances sake, they should align on religion or something.

Iran used to be part of the USA club when it had the brutal murderous dictator. But now it's enemy to the USA club as soon as they overthrew the dictator.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#89
post #48
post #15

I suspect there could be some more insightful ordering of the entities to make the situation slightly less clusterfuck-like. edit: http://i.imgur.com/PgXt8Md.png is bit better, there arises two kinda clear clusters of friends.

Your chart could be summarized as Sunni versus Shi'a, and muslims versus the world, with the religious cleansing in Sunni-Shi'a warfare taking priority. Which is kind of accurate.

Or more accurately. US foreign policy objectives and military aid versus independence.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#90
post #13

Since when did Iran and Turkey become enemies?

Iran and Turkey became enemies when Iran overthrew the brutal dictatorship of the Shah. Same time the US switched from being pro- the Iranian nuclear program to being anti-.

Highly surprising! Nah, not really.

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