Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods • Hacker News Board

Re: Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods

#81

Post by defen » Tue, Jul 15, 2014, 2:24 AM UTC

erichmond wrote: post #67

jmhain wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think about the possibility that the etiology is neurological? Here's my reasoning: * There's also no simple yes/no test for most mental illnesses * It explains why it correlates so heavily with anxiety disorders * It explains why it is treatable with psychotropic drugs * Falls in line with the increasing evidence that the enteric nervous system plays a role in both IBS and anxiety

Absolutely! The other wonky thing with my health is that I have had Vagal Atrial Fibrillation (VAF) in the past (which is rare for someone in their 30s). One trigger for VAF is indigestion in the stomach, which irritates the vagal nerve, which messes with the heart. The vagal nerve also runs into the brain, so I bet there is some form of two way conversation happening between the stomach and brain being facilitated b…

> fixing the brain chemicals seemed to have benefitted your stomach.

How do we know the drugs didn't fix the stomach chemicals (enteric nervous system) directly, resulting in better brain function?

Re: Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods

#82

Post by cpncrunch » Tue, Jul 15, 2014, 2:41 AM UTC

bdamm wrote: post #18

spingsprong wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just asking, but is there any chance the connection is the reverse? Stress and anxiety can cause digestive symptoms.

The interesting part is that even if that's the case, treating the digestive symptoms in an effective way could provide meaningful relief, cascading back into the emotional state that caused the initial problem. I've had it described to me in the following way; stress creates physical manifestations of that stress, those physical manifestations create discomfort, that discomfort creates stress. The feedback loop, onc…

So essentially changing diet is partly (or mostly) a placebo effect. IMO it is better to understand the causes of IBS/anxiety/stress and make changes to your lifestyle that address the root cause, rather than believing dubious science about gluten. (I'm not saying that you personally believe this crap science, but there are a lot of people out there who do). That has certainly worked well for me. I still do have IBS on occasion, but after doing some research into the HPA axis and ANS (and how the control gastric emptying, colonic transit and absorption) I now understand exactly why I have the symptoms, and they are very manageable. I don't have CFS, burnout, fatigue, anxiety or depression any more, but mild IBS seems to be a fact of life. Working for myself at home certainly helps a lot.

Re: Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods

#83

Post by Barraketh » Tue, Jul 15, 2014, 3:09 AM UTC

erichmond wrote: post #19

jmhain wrote: post #4

Be very careful with probiotics; just loading your system with random strains of bacteria from your local health food store can have serious consequences. I have IBS and an anxiety disorder that had been in remission for years. I tried Primadophilus Optima and it wrecked me. I went from a mild IBS-C to severe IBS-D, and my panic attacks came back with an intensity unlike anything I've ever experienced. I don't doubt…

IBS seems like the doctors way of saying "We don't know what your problem is". Doctors told me I had IBS for 10 years, then a friend suggested to stop eating wheat, and 95% of my symptoms went away. I'm actually about to start testing a FODMAP diet to see if I can improve my health any further. Have you tried anything to improve your health, or did you just accept the IBS diagnosis? I only ask because I've seen no re…

I've had mild IBS-D for as long as I can remember, and I've just had a very good experience with a 7 day water fast. It's been 2 weeks since I've finished my water fast, and I've had 0 incidents. Obviously this is anecdotal, since there is very little peer reviewed research on water-fasting in general, and specifically wrt to IBS.

Re: Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods

#84

Post by benlambt » Tue, Jul 15, 2014, 3:36 AM UTC

jmhain wrote: post #4

Be very careful with probiotics; just loading your system with random strains of bacteria from your local health food store can have serious consequences. I have IBS and an anxiety disorder that had been in remission for years. I tried Primadophilus Optima and it wrecked me. I went from a mild IBS-C to severe IBS-D, and my panic attacks came back with an intensity unlike anything I've ever experienced. I don't doubt…

Brewing your own probiotics may be a safer option. People have been eating Sauerkraut for 1000s of years. I just add chopped cabbage and a tablespoon of salt into a quart-sized jar, fill with filtered water and wait a week or so until it tastes sour enough.

Re: Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods

#85

Post by gouggoug » Tue, Jul 15, 2014, 6:30 AM UTC

cpncrunch wrote: post #82

bdamm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting part is that even if that's the case, treating the digestive symptoms in an effective way could provide meaningful relief, cascading back into the emotional state that caused the initial problem. I've had it described to me in the following way; stress creates physical manifestations of that stress, those physical manifestations create discomfort, that discomfort creates stress. The feedback loop, onc…

So essentially changing diet is partly (or mostly) a placebo effect. IMO it is better to understand the causes of IBS/anxiety/stress and make changes to your lifestyle that address the root cause, rather than believing dubious science about gluten. (I'm not saying that you personally believe this crap science, but there are a lot of people out there who do). That has certainly worked well for me. I still do have IBS…

> So essentially changing diet is partly (or mostly) a placebo effect. IMO it is better to understand the causes of IBS/anxiety/stress and make changes to your lifestyle that address the root cause, rather than believing dubious science about gluten.

That sounds very much like the approach a software/hardware engineer would have towards a bug. And it's great!

However, I'd say that the human body can't really be approached that way because of its, very much, inconstant nature (at least until we've figured out 100% how our bodies function).

In the current state of knowledge human kind has about biology, it would be very hard to pin-point a "bug" (IBS/stress/anxiety for example) to a specific root cause (bacteria x or y). On the opposite end, a software bug ultimately has one (or multiple) very much identifiable root causes.

All that to say that, it might not be possible to understand the causes of IBS/anxiety/stress, and thus, treating the symptoms might actually be the cure. (who knows, maybe treating a "biological bug" fixes the actual bug?)

It's also a chicken and egg problem: which started first? IBS or stress/anxiety?

Re: Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods

#86

Post by Paul_Dessert » Tue, Jul 15, 2014, 6:49 AM UTC

oldmanjay wrote: post #74

Paul_Dessert wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not arguing the science. It may be 100% correct. My issue the fact that a corporation with a very big upside is funding the research. That's all. Think about it.

You'll have to do better than "think about it" if you want your reasons to make sense outside of your own head.

It's okay. I understand common sense isn't so common...

Re: Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods

#87

Post by Someone » Tue, Jul 15, 2014, 7:00 AM UTC

erichmond wrote: post #19

jmhain wrote: post #4

Be very careful with probiotics; just loading your system with random strains of bacteria from your local health food store can have serious consequences. I have IBS and an anxiety disorder that had been in remission for years. I tried Primadophilus Optima and it wrecked me. I went from a mild IBS-C to severe IBS-D, and my panic attacks came back with an intensity unlike anything I've ever experienced. I don't doubt…

IBS seems like the doctors way of saying "We don't know what your problem is". Doctors told me I had IBS for 10 years, then a friend suggested to stop eating wheat, and 95% of my symptoms went away. I'm actually about to start testing a FODMAP diet to see if I can improve my health any further. Have you tried anything to improve your health, or did you just accept the IBS diagnosis? I only ask because I've seen no re…

They know the problem; irritable bowel, but not what causes it. That's why they call it a syndrome and not a disease.

It's the same with AIDS vs HIV infection. AIDS: we don't know what causes it, but it is acquired immunodeficiency. HIV: it's a disease caused by this virus.

Re: Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods

#88

Post by afro88 » Tue, Jul 15, 2014, 7:22 AM UTC

jonas_b wrote: post #7

afarrell wrote: post #6

Popular media reporting on complex scientific/technical/legal/etc topics should always be viewed with suspicion. Googling for the researchers' and journals' names produced the following: Dr. Mayer's study about women's responses to facial expressions. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23474283 Elaine Hsiao's study about certain autistic behaviors in mice. http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(13)01473-6 Here on HN…

No expert on the topic, though it really interests me. Have been drinking EM ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_microorganism ) every day for the past 6 months which has improved my digestion a lot. Thought this comment on the NPR article was really insightful: There's so much more to developing a healthy microbiome than just eating yogurt and drinking kombucha, as many people like to claim. It starts at birth.…

>as you come in contact with other people, you eat dirt, you hang around farm animals, etc, these are all mother nature's way of helping you develop that microbiome

I find that way of personifying our environment counter productive. It's not mother nature's way of helping us, it's that we evolved over millions of years in this environment and to change that is to hinder ourselves. I find this a much more accurate and convincing way of arguing for a back to nature style of development and nutrition.

Re: Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods

#89

Post by junto » Tue, Jul 15, 2014, 7:51 AM UTC

jmhain wrote: post #54

erichmond wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, it's great to hear taking the SSRI helped! Regarding the diagnosis of IBS, What I'm saying is, I've yet to have had (or seen) a test that definitively states "yes, you have IBS". During my time with stomach issues I've been tested for UC, Crohns disease, Celiac disease and gluten sensitivity. All the bloodwork and whatever else came back with definitive nos. Once all of those were ruled out, then the diagnosis…

What do you think about the possibility that the etiology is neurological? Here's my reasoning: * There's also no simple yes/no test for most mental illnesses * It explains why it correlates so heavily with anxiety disorders * It explains why it is treatable with psychotropic drugs * Falls in line with the increasing evidence that the enteric nervous system plays a role in both IBS and anxiety

There was recently a post here on HN that relates to this. As a UC sufferer I found it very interesting.

> How the Gut's "Second Brain" Influences Mood and Well-Being (2010) (scientificamerican.com)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7957057

It has often been noted that "stress or feelings of anxiety, guilt or resentment seem to trigger the symptoms":

http://www.mckinley.illinois.edu/handouts/irritable_bowel_sy...

Re: Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods

#90

Post by visakanv » Tue, Jul 15, 2014, 8:00 AM UTC

ar4s wrote: post #76

jmhain wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried eliminating wheat, sugar (in case it was fructose malabsorption), dairy, etc. I've tried tons of supplements like fish oil or vitamin D. Interestingly, each of those except dairy had very positive effects on my health in general (weight loss, clearer skin, elimination of seasonal depression) but had little effect on IBS symptoms. What did improve it (but not eliminate it) was taking an SSRI, which isn't su…

Have you considered doing a fecal transplant?

I knew people were talking shit on Hacker News, but I didn't realize that it was such a literal thing! :P

On a serious note, yes, this. I have a cousin who had really bad problems until he did such a transplant, and he said it pretty much gave him a new life.