The Data of Hate • Hacker News Board

Re: The Data of Hate

#81

Post by jqm » Mon, Jul 14, 2014, 2:26 AM UTC

lmz wrote: post #36

jqm wrote: post #35

I think the eventual solution to racism will be love. OK, maybe not love, but at least lust. We tend to take a very narrow time view of a few hundred years. However I can't but imagine in the US in two or three hundred years it will become increasingly harder to tell races apart. Look at countries like Brazil. Look at the amount of interracial marriage going on right now in the US as opposed to 50 years ago. That I s…

> However I can't but imagine in the US in two or three hundred years it will become increasingly harder to tell races apart. So instead of various diverse races you prefer a single mass of people with no distinct race?

I don't have a preference. Just stating what will almost certainly happen.

It's happened all throughout history before. In fact, I'm guessing most members of stormfront might be a bit surprised if they had a DNA test done.

We are all product of generations of rape and pillage and countless secret affairs behind tents. But now we can move about faster and communicate better.

Re: The Data of Hate

#82

Post by QuantumChaos » Mon, Jul 14, 2014, 2:40 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #77

QuantumChaos wrote: post #41

Even though they take their views to ridiculous extremes, sites like Stormfront do have a valid critique of the hypocrisy of liberal American Jews. Exactly the same people and groups who claim that White people desiring to live among other White people is stupid and immoral, also believe that Israel being a Jewish nation is non-negotiable. Only the far-left (e.g. Norman Finkelstein and Chomsky in some moments) are co…

"White identity" is a historically incoherent concept advanced almost exclusively by neo-Nazis. "Whites" are descended from an entire continent of rival nations, all of whom historically hate each other. A better analogy would be, I dunno, Croats? No one begrudges the Croats their national identity.

First, people certainly will begrudge Croats their national identity, when they get around to it. I'm sure you're familiar with the battle against English identity or Swedish identity (at least when they are defined in the same way as Jewish identity is).

Furthermore, I think that you are simply defining anyone who talks or thinks about White identity as a "neo-Nazi". Jews are given space where they can think about and consider their identity. Whites are only permitted to feel shame about theirs.

The onus is on you to explain why people with common appearance, ethnic background, language and culture, do not form a well defined group simply because they are more numerous than Jewish people are as a group. Or why, the European disapora, having intermingled in the US for 500 years, must completely give up their identity and accept anyone from the world as like them, simply because they don't originate from a single country.

Re: The Data of Hate

#83

Post by QuantumChaos » Mon, Jul 14, 2014, 2:46 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #79

QuantumChaos wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, they don't. Don't legitimize their nonsense. I share this critique, and I outlined it in my post, so I'm not legitimizing them, but rather outlining what things I think they are correct about. I simply do not believe that Israel as a Jewish state is a "security measure". Almost no one thinks of it in these terms, neither Israeli Jews or American Jews (Einstein did, but he was in a minority). Israeli's (and Ameri…

> Almost no one thinks of it in these terms, neither Israeli Jews or American Jews (Einstein did, but he was in a minority). Israeli's (and American Jews) typcially describe Israel is existing for the protection of Israel identity, religion and culture, not the physical protection of individual Jews. I'm an American Jew who does. It's also not all that rare of a belief that having a country with a majority Jewish pop…

I'm familiar with holocaust as a reason for Israel's existence, I just don't accept it as the primary reason. There are simply to many occasions where American Jews and Israelis celebrate Jewish culture and identity for its own sake, and not merely as a reaction to being singled out by other Whites.

Even the narrative of the holocaust suggests that Jewish identity and culture is valued for its own sake. The concept of genocide implies that wiping an entire group of people is worse than simply killing the same number of randomly selected people. If this is true, then it follows that there was some inherent value in that group's identity, beyond their worth, and right to exist, as individuals.

Re: The Data of Hate

#84

Post by morgante » Mon, Jul 14, 2014, 2:56 AM UTC

QuantumChaos wrote: post #83

morgante wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost no one thinks of it in these terms, neither Israeli Jews or American Jews (Einstein did, but he was in a minority). Israeli's (and American Jews) typcially describe Israel is existing for the protection of Israel identity, religion and culture, not the physical protection of individual Jews. I'm an American Jew who does. It's also not all that rare of a belief that having a country with a majority Jewish pop…

I'm familiar with holocaust as a reason for Israel's existence, I just don't accept it as the primary reason. There are simply to many occasions where American Jews and Israelis celebrate Jewish culture and identity for its own sake, and not merely as a reaction to being singled out by other Whites. Even the narrative of the holocaust suggests that Jewish identity and culture is valued for its own sake. The concept o…

So now you're getting very Stormfronty.

> There are simply to many occasions where American Jews and Israelis celebrate Jewish culture and identity for its own sake, and not merely as a reaction to being singled out by other Whites.

What is wrong with that? Do the Jewish people somehow not deserve existence? Why should we not celebrate our culture and religion the same way Christians, Croats, and Italians do? (for example.)

Also, celebrating our culture is not mutually exclusive with celebrating diversity of cultures.

> The concept of genocide implies that wiping an entire group of people is worse than simply killing the same number of randomly selected people.

Do you dispute that? Generally racism is frowned upon.

Hating because you don't like their personality is acceptable. Hating them for their race isn't.

Killing someone is unacceptable. Killing someone for their race is even less acceptable.

That I have to explain this to you makes me think I might be dealing with anti-semitism.

Re: The Data of Hate

#85

Post by wyager » Mon, Jul 14, 2014, 3:08 AM UTC

lmz wrote: post #36

jqm wrote: post #35

I think the eventual solution to racism will be love. OK, maybe not love, but at least lust. We tend to take a very narrow time view of a few hundred years. However I can't but imagine in the US in two or three hundred years it will become increasingly harder to tell races apart. Look at countries like Brazil. Look at the amount of interracial marriage going on right now in the US as opposed to 50 years ago. That I s…

> However I can't but imagine in the US in two or three hundred years it will become increasingly harder to tell races apart. So instead of various diverse races you prefer a single mass of people with no distinct race?

>So instead of various diverse races you prefer a single mass of people with no distinct race?

I personally wouldn't mind. Society gains nothing from distinct physical characteristics, except the ability to visually identify individuals.

Re: The Data of Hate

#86

Post by QuantumChaos » Mon, Jul 14, 2014, 3:17 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #84

QuantumChaos wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm familiar with holocaust as a reason for Israel's existence, I just don't accept it as the primary reason. There are simply to many occasions where American Jews and Israelis celebrate Jewish culture and identity for its own sake, and not merely as a reaction to being singled out by other Whites. Even the narrative of the holocaust suggests that Jewish identity and culture is valued for its own sake. The concept o…

So now you're getting very Stormfronty. > There are simply to many occasions where American Jews and Israelis celebrate Jewish culture and identity for its own sake, and not merely as a reaction to being singled out by other Whites. What is wrong with that? Do the Jewish people somehow not deserve existence? Why should we not celebrate our culture and religion the same way Christians, Croats, and Italians do? (for ex…

>What is wrong with that? Do the Jewish people somehow not deserve existence? Why should we not celebrate our culture and religion the same way Christians, Croats, and Italians do? (for example.)

If Jewish people deserve existence (as a group, not individuals), then White people deserve existence as a group.

You say that White people are allowed to celebrate their culture and religion, and yet these are precisely the actions that are demonized as racism or at best ignorant provincialism, by the same liberals Jews I am describing.

You simply cannot have it both ways. My first post described how supporting Israel's existence as a Jewish nation was contradictory to liberal Jew's attitude towards White identity. You now concede that Jewish identity is in fact very similar to White identity. But now you are trying to change the argument, as if I was the one saying that Jewish identity was unacceptable. I'm not. I'm saying it is no more or less acceptable that White identity.

>Killing someone is unacceptable. Killing someone for their race is even less acceptable.

I disagree, but that isn't the point here. The argument against genocide I'm referring to is that it is more wrong because it wipes out a particular race or ethnicity, not because of the mindset of the perpetrator.

>So now you're getting very Stormfronty.

>That I have to explain this to you makes me think I might be dealing with anti-semitism.

You are clutching at straws.

Re: The Data of Hate

#87

Post by philwelch » Mon, Jul 14, 2014, 3:31 AM UTC

QuantumChaos wrote: post #82

philwelch wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"White identity" is a historically incoherent concept advanced almost exclusively by neo-Nazis. "Whites" are descended from an entire continent of rival nations, all of whom historically hate each other. A better analogy would be, I dunno, Croats? No one begrudges the Croats their national identity.

First, people certainly will begrudge Croats their national identity, when they get around to it. I'm sure you're familiar with the battle against English identity or Swedish identity (at least when they are defined in the same way as Jewish identity is). Furthermore, I think that you are simply defining anyone who talks or thinks about White identity as a "neo-Nazi". Jews are given space where they can think about a…

European-descended people as a whole don't have a common ethnicity, language, or culture.

Re: The Data of Hate

#88

Post by dsuth » Mon, Jul 14, 2014, 3:54 AM UTC

lmz wrote: post #36

jqm wrote: post #35

I think the eventual solution to racism will be love. OK, maybe not love, but at least lust. We tend to take a very narrow time view of a few hundred years. However I can't but imagine in the US in two or three hundred years it will become increasingly harder to tell races apart. Look at countries like Brazil. Look at the amount of interracial marriage going on right now in the US as opposed to 50 years ago. That I s…

> However I can't but imagine in the US in two or three hundred years it will become increasingly harder to tell races apart. So instead of various diverse races you prefer a single mass of people with no distinct race?

That's pretty much inevitable, over a long enough timeline.

Re: The Data of Hate

#89

Post by QuantumChaos » Mon, Jul 14, 2014, 3:58 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #87

QuantumChaos wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, people certainly will begrudge Croats their national identity, when they get around to it. I'm sure you're familiar with the battle against English identity or Swedish identity (at least when they are defined in the same way as Jewish identity is). Furthermore, I think that you are simply defining anyone who talks or thinks about White identity as a "neo-Nazi". Jews are given space where they can think about a…

European-descended people as a whole don't have a common ethnicity, language, or culture.

They certainly have much more in common in all these areas than they do with non-Europeans.

Re: The Data of Hate

#90

Post by ddellacosta » Mon, Jul 14, 2014, 3:59 AM UTC

QuantumChaos wrote: post #86

morgante wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now you're getting very Stormfronty. > There are simply to many occasions where American Jews and Israelis celebrate Jewish culture and identity for its own sake, and not merely as a reaction to being singled out by other Whites. What is wrong with that? Do the Jewish people somehow not deserve existence? Why should we not celebrate our culture and religion the same way Christians, Croats, and Italians do? (for ex…

>What is wrong with that? Do the Jewish people somehow not deserve existence? Why should we not celebrate our culture and religion the same way Christians, Croats, and Italians do? (for example.) If Jewish people deserve existence (as a group, not individuals), then White people deserve existence as a group. You say that White people are allowed to celebrate their culture and religion, and yet these are precisely the…

> If Jewish people deserve existence (as a group, not individuals), then White people deserve existence as a group.

This makes no sense. Jewish people as a group have a very long shared cultural and religious history. However, the concept of "white people" is a fairly recent cultural and political construct and has changed dramatically over the years--for example, at one point in the United States Irish and Italians were not considered to be white. You can't compare them in the way you (and the Stormfront crowd) are attempting to.

http://www.salon.com/2010/03/23/history_of_white_people_nell...