I once calculated the tax implications of a basic income where everyone received a lump sum paid for by a flat income tax. A basic income at the current welfare rate seemed to be easily achievable. I seem to recall that a 20k basic income was at the upper limit of what would be achievable without an exorbitant income tax rate. Many comments on the web are dismissive of a basic income because they simply multiply the…
Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians
81–90 of 108 posts
Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You don't want to discourage people from working altogether. 20k is basically poverty, you are not going to remove any desires at that level. > I think the equivalent of a part-time job at minimum wage makes the most sense. The idea is to make sure that when all else fails, you can still cover the necessities of life, things like eating and a place to sleep. Part-time minimum wage doesn't come close to that.
20k CAD ~= 19k USD ~= 11k GBP ~= 14 EUR If this was per adult in the UK then I'd be getting a substantial income boost over what I'm earning at present.
Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians
#83I once calculated the tax implications of a basic income where everyone received a lump sum paid for by a flat income tax. A basic income at the current welfare rate seemed to be easily achievable. I seem to recall that a 20k basic income was at the upper limit of what would be achievable without an exorbitant income tax rate. Many comments on the web are dismissive of a basic income because they simply multiply the…
I'd genuinely like to see your numbers because I've not seen a single napkin math calculation that makes is even remotely feasible. (for the United States)
http://www.budget.senate.gov/republican/public/index.cfm/201...
"Based on data from the Congressional Research Service, cumulative spending on means-tested federal welfare programs, if converted into cash, would equal $167.65 per day per household living below the poverty level. By comparison, the median household income in 2011 of $50,054 equals $137.13 per day. Additionally, spending on federal welfare benefits, if converted into cash payments, equals enough to provide $30.60 per hour, 40 hours per week, to each household living below poverty."
Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
How exactly would a negative tax bracket work? Taken literally, this would mean that up to a certain income level, the government would pay you an amount proportional to how much you make. Presumably what it actually means is that you would be paid inversely proportional to how much you make. At first glance it seems to me that this would have one of the same problems as the current system, which a guaranteed basic i…
The easier way to explain it is with a formula: Taxes = -10 + 0.3 * BTI So after tax income becomes: ATI = 10 + 0.7 * BTI (You can put on progressive taxes there, but I tried to simplify)
Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians
#85As much as I like the idea of a basic income, it's hard to make the numbers work. Canada has 34,880,000 people in it, so a CAD 20,000 basic income would cost CAD 697,600,000,000. According to http://www.fin.gc.ca/afr-rfa/2013/report-rapport-eng.asp#a3 , Canada's total government revenue (at the federal level) was CAD 256,600,000,000. So Canada would have to raise taxes by 170% to provide this basic income, and raise…
You're including people who do not need the wage - people who already have a job that pays higher than the $20k would not receive it.
That population number dwindles when all these people are taken into account.
Remember Canada has the youngest population in the G8 and could be the best candidate for this type of experiment.
Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
How exactly would a negative tax bracket work? Taken literally, this would mean that up to a certain income level, the government would pay you an amount proportional to how much you make. Presumably what it actually means is that you would be paid inversely proportional to how much you make. At first glance it seems to me that this would have one of the same problems as the current system, which a guaranteed basic i…
Negative income tax is just an implementation detail. This idea is not in competition with GMI, it's a restatement of it, showing how it can exist on the far right as well as the far left. Per the reputable wikipedia: "Negative income taxes can implement a basic income or supplement a guaranteed minimum income system. In a negative income tax system, people earning a certain income level would owe no taxes; those ear…
For example, if you take a basic income system with a $20k guaranteed minimum income - if you tried to recreate that with a negative tax bracket and a threshold of $20k, you would need to pay 100% of the shortfall. And even then, you would effectively have a 100% marginal tax rate; until you make $20k there is no financial incentive to work at all.
Instead, to get the equivalent of a $20k GBI, you would need to do something like, set a $40k threshold, with a negative tax of 50% of your shortfall. So at 0 income you get $20k. (And at 10k income you get 15k in negative tax, for a total of 25k, etc.) Of course, your marginal tax in that example is still very high at 50%. To make the marginal tax rate low, which is desirable at low income levels, you would either need to set a very high threshold, or more likely, have multiple negative tax brackets at different rates.
What I still fail to see is how this is "better" than a standard guaranteed income. It just seems like people will find it much more confusing than providing a fixed amount to everyone and having positive tax brackets as we do already (albeit different ones).
Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Europe it's entirely feasible, if your whole goal is to more or less keep the same post-tax, post-welfare distribution of income. You just do away with the traditional combination of means tested welfare and means tested taxes, and replace it with means testing for the taxes only. In the US that would also be possible, but the level of basic income you arrive at might be bloody low. I don't know the data. At least…
This may sound rude, but I literally do not care about any response that does include napkin math. The concept of basic income has been quite popular on HN and elsewhere for the past 6-12 months. I have asked for napkin math probably two dozen times. No one has ever been able to provide it. I love the concept of basic income. I've played with the numbers quite a bit myself. I've tried to make it work. I can't do it.…
Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians
#88Australia already has basically this. It's called 'welfare', but anyone that doesn't have a job gets a touch over $1000AUD/mo (so just over $12kUSD/year) for life [1]. It doesn't matter if you've never had a job, or have, or whatever. They will encourage you to get a job, and you might have to work a little bit to get that money, but you'll get it. If you've got a partner, or dependent(s), you'll get more. Likely if…
Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Europe it's entirely feasible, if your whole goal is to more or less keep the same post-tax, post-welfare distribution of income. You just do away with the traditional combination of means tested welfare and means tested taxes, and replace it with means testing for the taxes only. In the US that would also be possible, but the level of basic income you arrive at might be bloody low. I don't know the data. At least…
This may sound rude, but I literally do not care about any response that does include napkin math. The concept of basic income has been quite popular on HN and elsewhere for the past 6-12 months. I have asked for napkin math probably two dozen times. No one has ever been able to provide it. I love the concept of basic income. I've played with the numbers quite a bit myself. I've tried to make it work. I can't do it.…
The UK government spends £732 billion. If we subtract £222 billion for Social Protection (we're replacing all of it with our BI), we get £510 billion required. If we add up all government income except Income Tax - Business Rates, Excise, etc - we get £481 billion.
That leaves us a shortfall of £29 billion. For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to assume that reductions in crime, the increase in VAT revenue, better health, etc are going to cover that. Let's call it close enough for government work. At the end of the day, we currently borrow £84 billion anyway, so at worst I've slashed the deficit :-)
Income Tax brings in £167 billion. UK population I'm going to take at 60 million. So, as a starting point, that gives us £2,783 annually, or £54 ($80) a week. Well, that's not a bad start! Let's consider what it means for actual people. Thus far:
Who loves me:
- Right-wingers. I've eliminated (or vastly reduced) the deficit, effectively increased the income tax allowance by £2,783 and given them this amount in cash, while reducing welfare payments to lazy, single-mother immigrants. I should be head of the Conservative party.
- Most people on Job Seekers Allowance (unemployment benefit). While I've cut the amount they actually get, I've also cut out all the paperwork, visits to the job centre, taking money off them if they happen to earn something that week, etc etc. Money without the hassle.
- Low wage workers. This is a big boost above Working Tax Credit and is hassle free (you don't lose it by earning more). It also allows some degree of security in the event of losing their job.
Who hates me:
- Left-wingers. While I've helped some low paid workers, I've also slashed benefits, there's no housing support...in short I've cut welfare while giving more money to wealthy people. I should be head of the Conservative party.
- People who're claiming several benefits. People who're on sickness benefit. Basically, all the folk who've had their income reduced below a living wage.
- Pensioners. The state pension has been cut significantly (and illegally).
Ok, I think I need to balance it a bit more. I'm going to reduce the Income Tax allowance from £10,000 (current) to £6,000. This should balance out at the end. I'm going to assume this increases income tax revenue by 25% (I've no idea if this is remotely close. If anyone can be bothered finding out, please let me know). More controversially, I'm also going to increase income tax by 25%, so the basic rate is now 25% rather than 20%.
That should give me a total revenue increase of 50% from Income Tax which gives me £4,175 annually or £80 ($120) per week.
And I think I'll leave it there. We'd need to borrow (or cut spending elsewhere) to make up other shortfalls (such as pension payments), but as long as it's less than £50 billion we still come out ahead. It might be more natural to cut the payment to £70 for everyone in order to free up some cash for other payments. In the real world, you wouldn't exclusively reserve Income Tax to one specific spending area anyway, but it makes things simple enough to get a rough measure.
Thoughts?
Re: Activists push for guaranteed minimum income for Canadians
#90If an "unconditional basic income" is ever to be successful, it should be tried first in a small, wealthy country, before being implemented in bigger countries. Good candidates might be Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and so on. Big experiments have a tendency to fail catastrophically...
See my other comment, Australia already has it.
No, your other comment just mentioned the dole, which is NOT the same thing at all. Other countries have the dole, in fact, every country listed above in the comment that states they don't have guaranteed basic income, all have wide spread social protections including welfare (and often, quite a bit more wide spread than Australia, whether you see that as a good or a bad thing is up to you).
Sometimes definitions vary from place to place, for instance in Australia you have to vote, it isn't a right you choose to exorcize like the world right is used elsewhere, it is a government mandated obligation, well similarly, in other places, welfare is not considered unconditional income, because well, it isn't. There are barriers to qualification and there are certainly strings attached (some places like the UK, the ASBO system coupled with the welfare system is used like a carrot on a stick with a donkey).
TLDR: This is not about welfare, that exists even in 3rd world countries (although not always to the same degree) it is about unconditional basic income.