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Dart 1.5

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Re: Dart 1.5

#81

Post by azakai »

mraleph wrote: post #72
azakai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The danger is that the VM has different semantics (for example, integer overflow) than dart2js code. If the same dart code sometimes runs in JS and sometimes in the dart VM, people are going to hit weird bugs. Also, if it is possible to ship dart code by itself - without the JS fallback - then we are going to see sites that don't bother with the JS fallback, and those sites are only going to work in chrome. For both…

Here is a question to consider: can the web where you can't efficiently[1] implement any dynamic language with a semantics different from JavaScript be called truly open? [1] I am well aware about different attempts to attack this issue from various angles from AOT to JIT generating JS code but no attempt currently produces truly efficient solution that demonstrates small footprint and consistent high performance on…

First, you're using "open" in a way I haven't heard before (not in the context of "open web"). Not saying it's wrong :) Perhaps we should use it that way too. But you're suggesting a new perspective here. We could debate that first, before debating the technical stuff. Or perhaps we could call it "technologically open."

But to focus on the more interesting technical stuff: First, we have a fast Lua VM port. Not LuaJIT, but even the Lua VM itself is quite fast for a dynamic language (and the port is 2/3 of native speed).

Second, there are experiments with JITs targeting JS, like pypy.js. Yes, pypy.js has a large footprint, as you referred to. But I think the fact is that very little effort has gone into this. Much more is possible than has already been done.

If we had a large, serious project doing this, I think we could see the potential. Instead, things like pypy.js are spare-time projects of a single person. So it's not fair to assume that their success or failure in terms of performance and footprint is indicative.

Re: Dart 1.5

#82

Post by msie »

azakai wrote: post #60
macspoofing wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As things currently stand, Dart compiles to JavaScript, which is exactly the right way to do it That was never going to change. The idea, as far as I understand it, is for Dart to be executed natively where there is a Dart VM. Where there isn't, the dart2js output would be executed. The DOM itself would be unchanged. I think that's reasonable. In fact, more than reasonable, that's just a good idea.

The danger is that the VM has different semantics (for example, integer overflow) than dart2js code. If the same dart code sometimes runs in JS and sometimes in the dart VM, people are going to hit weird bugs. Also, if it is possible to ship dart code by itself - without the JS fallback - then we are going to see sites that don't bother with the JS fallback, and those sites are only going to work in chrome. For both…

Yes, let's not innovate on the web anymore. Why was Chrome invented in the first place? We all should have stuck to IE 6 and Navigator. For openness.

Re: Dart 1.5

#83

Post by jmesserly »

fidotron wrote: post #61
daw___ wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to follow this thread: Support building native Android applications with Dart https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=19266

Would be neat if they had an adapter for the polymer stuff so that a "material" UI could be rendered in a webpage or with Android's native UI depending on the execution context and no changes to the app code (written in Dart). On the edge of possible, but a lot of work.

That should work as of this week with Polymer's paper-elements: http://www.polymer-project.org/docs/elements/material.html, available for Dart at https://github.com/dart-lang/paper-elements.

You could either build it as a mobile web app, or if you need more of Android's APIs there's https://cordova.apache.org/.

Re: Dart 1.5

#86

Post by munificent »

alptrv wrote: post #84
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

Are there any plans to introduce generators or async/await?

Yes! From Gilad:

> We are working out a proposal that is somewhat similar to async-await in C#. Again, we hope to finalize that in time for the next rev of the standard. Details as soon as coherent articles explaining it all can be put together.

Re: Dart 1.5

#87

Post by YousefED »

_random_ wrote: post #69
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

What is Google's vision for Dart going forward? Why is it not a primary language for Android? I really like Dart. Google is pretty much the only company trying to break the tyranny of JS in browsers. (e.g. Microsoft clearly said that they are betting on C# and .NET as their main offering for everything - would be nice if Google was capable of this sort of direct messages)

I actually think microsoft is very much behind non-.net technologies as well nowadays.

My experience with their TypeScript initiative has been really smooth, feels like they're trying to improve JS instead of inventing something new (by sticking as close as possible to the ES.next specs). The generated JS is very close to the original, both in size as readability.

Re: Dart 1.5

#88

Post by munificent »

mmozeiko wrote: post #85
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

Why does "Dart SDK (64-bit Windows)" contain 32-bit Windows dart.exe binary?

I recall hearing someone at the office mention that, but I don't know the details. File a bug or ask on the mailing list and someone who knows better than me can sort it out.

Re: Dart 1.5

#89

Post by jmesserly »

stesch wrote: post #58

I wouldn't use Dart until this bug is fixed: https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=13285

fyi, I think most of my original complaints in that bug are either fixed, or largely mitigated. I don't think we've had any issues for over a year now (since Dart 1.0). I still wish it was even more bulletproof, but it isn't scary anymore like it was. Google is building lots of stuff in Dart too, so we're on the hook if something breaks.

Re: Dart 1.5

#90

Post by _greim_ »

alptrv wrote: post #84
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

Are there any plans to introduce generators or async/await?

I'd like to know too. As clunky as JS is, generators make possible some pretty interesting stuff[1] that I would miss in Dart.

[1] https://github.com/visionmedia/co

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