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Be Nice Or Leave

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Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#81

Post by opendais »

rogov wrote: post #79
opendais wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is alot like Diplomacy. You want to be honorable/nice until you are playing for the final outcome of your career, then you stop playing nice. The CEO at one of the places I've worked basically screwed over 80+ people to get his retirement package [sold the company; his equity was worth millions] and they blindly trusted him right up until the day he did it. Those 80 people were laid off shortly after and the jobs…

I hadn't heard of Diplomacy until I read the Grantland article [1] that was posted here yesterday. "It is alot like Diplomacy. You want to be honorable/nice until you are playing for the final outcome of your career, then you stop playing nice." This sentence correlates exactly with the climax of that article. I don’t want to hurt the other players just to get that win, he had always thought. Additionally, by always…

I used to play Diplomacy in High School and we all pretty much played that way. ;)

I generally assume that is how people in the real world behave as well and I'm usually right. It is part of why I'll never be a libertarian, when the counterweight is gone the knives come out. Human nature is ugly when they know they can get away with it.

> I am, however, hopeful that I would continue to be honorable through the end of my career. That's how you leave a legacy.

I hope you are too. :) It makes you a good person that you'd choose to do the right thing over self interest when the only thing that stops you from it is you.

I'm not sure I'm that good of a person and I know many people I've met IRL aren't.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#82

Post by merrua »

upthedale wrote: post #10

This was one of my key take-aways from Dale Carnegie's classic, 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'. I've seen it mentioned on various reading lists for those wanting to go into the business world too. Funny thing is, when recommending it to a friend, they mistakenly assumed from the title that it was a book of underhand tactics, which couldn't really be further from the truth. There's a lot to be said for bein…

I've been making the same assumption. :) So thanks for mentioning it isn't. I'm happier now to spend money to read it.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#84

Post by jib »

candybar wrote: post #74

Being nice is easy. Being good is hard. What's missing here is that powerful people are almost always transacting on behalf of many others who are not present at the bargaining table. By being nice, they may be trading other people's money for personal goodwill that they get to keep for themselves. This is "being nice" in some ways, but this isn't good for society and may be highly unethical. Would you want governmen…

By your reasoning Amazon are crazy for keeping as low margins as they are. They are leaving money on the table in the belief that as long as they stay somewhat profitable their future earnings will outweigh the short-term benefits from the money grab they certainly could make. They also have the added benefit of being hard to attack this way.

Fred Wilson is making a similar argument. By leaving some money on the table you increase your long term growth potential. People will be more likely to make deals with his funds if they know that he will make them a good deal rather than try to make the best deal for himself. His belief is that that strategy has a better chance of success, as he will get in on more good deals than someone who doesnt.

As long as he is open about that fact I see no problem. If you dont believe that is a good strategy you shouldnt invest with him. If you do, you should, in the same way that you should buy amazon stock if you believe in their strategy.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#85

Post by merrua »

vidarh wrote: post #53
anathebealio wrote: post #14

Too often I find that people who are nice in daily life are considered naive or push-overs. It is a skill to be kind to others and to retain the reputation of standing your ground. I'm not sure why there is confusion between having an opinion/looking out for yourself and being a jerk -- and this certainly shines through the most in business where everyone is looking to make money. My boss is an extremely kind man, bu…

> I'm not sure why there is confusion between having an opinion/looking out for yourself and being a jerk Often it'd down to delivery, and how you interact with people, rather than having an opinion. My "favorite" learning moment personally came when I was once stuck in a meeting room with a colleague while we were waiting for a document revision or something, and out of the blue he told me "you know, when I first jo…

This is useful information. I can see myself having made this mistake. People don't love a strong negotiator in every culture and usually dislike women negotiating. But being able to work by collaborating and negotiating is really valuable for getting your views across.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#86

Post by jonnathanson »

corobo wrote: post #45
thisone wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think How to Win Friends is one of those books that you (you being someone in the supermajority of people who isn't naturally gifted at interpersonal relationships) know you should read but you avoid it. Then one day, you are desperate and you read it and wonder "my God why didn't I read this sooner!"

I've avoided it for so long as it does look like it's either a manipulation guidebook or a social skills for dummies book. Your comment has convinced me to give it a go :)

I think a lot of folks today never get around to reading it because they assume it's old or outdated. (It isn't. Human psychology hasn't changed much since Dale Carnegie's day.) Alternatively, they read something sinister, or else hucksterish into the title. To be fair, the idea of "winning" friends implies a sort of gamesmanship. And the idea of "influencing people" can make one think of manipulation or politics.

The interesting thing about the book is that it can be read in either light: as a Machiavellian guidebook, or as an earnest how-to about the principles of mutual friendship. Carnegie probably intended the book to be the latter, however, and that's the spirit in which I read it. It is very much worth reading. People can do what they will with the information in the book, but I hope they do good with it.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#87

Post by dreamweapon »

candybar wrote: post #74

Being nice is easy. Being good is hard. What's missing here is that powerful people are almost always transacting on behalf of many others who are not present at the bargaining table. By being nice, they may be trading other people's money for personal goodwill that they get to keep for themselves. This is "being nice" in some ways, but this isn't good for society and may be highly unethical. Would you want governmen…

Would you want government regulators to be nice to the industry people they are regulating because in the long run they benefit from having good relationship with industry leaders? Would you want hedge fund managers who's managing your money to be nice to banks, that is, overpay for services, because fees come out of your pocket while they can monetize the relationship in the future?

Umm, I think Fred was suggesting that we be nice to other people, not nice to abstract entities such as banks, or companies subject to government regulation. Also, the examples you cite would clearly fall under what Fred means when he says "I am not saying you should be overly generous or nice to a fault."

Would you want college admissions officers to be nice to their friends with college-bound kids?

That's not being "nice", that's favoritism.

EDIT: sentence added in first paragraph.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#88

Post by dreamweapon »

dreamweapon wrote: post #87
candybar wrote: post #74

Being nice is easy. Being good is hard. What's missing here is that powerful people are almost always transacting on behalf of many others who are not present at the bargaining table. By being nice, they may be trading other people's money for personal goodwill that they get to keep for themselves. This is "being nice" in some ways, but this isn't good for society and may be highly unethical. Would you want governmen…

Would you want government regulators to be nice to the industry people they are regulating because in the long run they benefit from having good relationship with industry leaders? Would you want hedge fund managers who's managing your money to be nice to banks, that is, overpay for services, because fees come out of your pocket while they can monetize the relationship in the future? Umm, I think Fred was suggesting…

Downvoter - explain, please.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#89

Post by mtm »

jacquesm wrote: post #60
palebluedot wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not my intent at all, and I certainly don't think of it as calculating. I think you are conflating a quote highlighting a benefit of being nice (or really, the dangerous of being ruthless), with describing the moral reason to be nice. Naturally character is better highlighted by what you do that has no tangible reward, and done in the dark, where you think no one will see it. And being nice, and compassionate…

I think it revolves around 'acting nice' vs 'being nice' but the words escape me to articulate the difference any clearer than that.

I think you the word you're looking for is 'sincerity'

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#90

Post by lilsunnybee »

jib wrote: post #84
candybar wrote: post #74

Being nice is easy. Being good is hard. What's missing here is that powerful people are almost always transacting on behalf of many others who are not present at the bargaining table. By being nice, they may be trading other people's money for personal goodwill that they get to keep for themselves. This is "being nice" in some ways, but this isn't good for society and may be highly unethical. Would you want governmen…

By your reasoning Amazon are crazy for keeping as low margins as they are. They are leaving money on the table in the belief that as long as they stay somewhat profitable their future earnings will outweigh the short-term benefits from the money grab they certainly could make. They also have the added benefit of being hard to attack this way. Fred Wilson is making a similar argument. By leaving some money on the tabl…

Running low margins in retail is often more of a really cutthroat business strategy, rather than simply trying to be nice to customers. You can easily run smaller competitors out of business, and increase your volume and overall profits, by making the competition unable to compete.
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