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Ted Kennedy has died

nytimes.com

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Re: Ted Kennedy has died

#81

Post by lionhearted »

idlewords wrote: post #46
spking wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference here is that any exchange with a useless company is on a voluntary basis, whereas any exchange with the government is completely compulsory. If I don't give Useless Company X my money, they go out of business for not adding enough value. If I don't give my money to the government, they garnish my wages, put liens on my house and put me in prison, and continue to run inefficiently whilst piling up massi…

I think this idea that we can punish ineffectiveness in the private sector is pleasant to think about, but doesn't reflect our actual experience. Think of all the ineffective or downright hateful businesses you give your money to because there is no practical alternative: cable and internet providers, health insurers, banks, credit cards, ticketmaster, airlines, big box stores, domain registrars...

I find it strange that this comment is getting upvoted. For instance, you can fly to literally the other side of the world in one day for less than two week's pay at even a poorly paying job. Not that long ago, it took a few days to go from Boston to New York on horseback.

Credit cards facilitated online shopping and the internet as we know it. As someone whose taken credit cards, I hate giving up the 2.x%, but it's well worth it. Many businesses wouldn't be possible without credit cards. They're massively convenient. And AMEX totally washes the consumer's hands of fraud and damaged goods.

Business does well. Even the above cross-section of "downright hateful companies" are still pretty good businesses. And the scummiest ones are scummy because they're in bed with government. Cable/internet local monopolies, health insurers with the tax code, and banks with the... well, that's a long discussion and you've probably heard some of it.

Government branches can't go out of business. When they do poorly, they always say it's because they don't have enough money, and they get more. Business has a natural check on it - people have to like it enough to use it. You could skip airlines and take a boat or train or horse, you could use only cash and keep it in your mattress, you could use other alternatives. You don't, because those companies aren't perfect, but they do a pretty good job. I wish I could just "not use" the IRS, I wish I could just "not use" TSA, I wish I could just "pass" on going to the DMV and giving them money for a sticker or laminated piece of plastic.

No private sector company that isn't in bed with the government or run by powerful violent criminals is as nasty as the DMV, IRS, or TSA to its customers. And they don't go out of business.

Re: Ted Kennedy has died

#82

Post by davidw »

danielrhodes wrote: post #62

For those of you who are questioning why this deserves to be here: obviously HN is predominantly tech/entrepreneur related, but don't be so fundamentalist about it. Ted Kennedy was a prolific senator who was one of the most influential members of the most powerful government in the world -- his death deserves discussion not just among those interested in politics but in other circles as well. HN has a great community…

> why not occasionally apply those positive aspects to other topics as well

Because some of us believe strongly that "other topics" (well, specifically politics and lots of economics) don't mix well with the continued existence of the aforementioned positive aspects.

Re: Ted Kennedy has died

#83

Post by roundsquare »

unalone wrote: post #80
roundsquare wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think its right to ignore someone's failures. However, it is right to balance their failures and accomplishments. I'm hesitant to jump into this and try to balance this myself, but Chappaquiddick is a huge mark against him.

[...] it is right to balance their failures and accomplishments [...] Chappaquiddick is a huge mark against him The terminologies you're using suggest somehow ranking him, or judging him. I don't think that's useful at all. Ted Kennedy is dead. Most likely, I'll never think of him much after today. While he was alive, I never had to vote for him, or vote on his policies. So to me, and I'm sure to you, he is an abstra…

> The terminologies you're using suggest somehow ranking him, or judging him.

Fair point, bad writing on my part. Ok, really bad writing.

But to go back to the top of the thread, the discussion was about lessons to be learned. The fact that he get got off so lightly does teach us something about how much influence rich/powerful families have. You may think its obvious, but I think its a) a bit of an eye opener though most people won't admit it and b) good to be reminded of it.

On the other hand, there are positive lessons to learn from his efforts in the senate.

My point is that its important to learn all the lessons if your going to try to look at someone's life and learn them at all.

Edit: Also, I'm not really a huge fan of treading softly just because someone has died. I'm not going to go around and bash the guy, but I think its good to have an honest discussion (at least here on HN, obviously not in other situations).

Re: Ted Kennedy has died

#84

Post by rms »

lionhearted wrote: post #81
idlewords wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this idea that we can punish ineffectiveness in the private sector is pleasant to think about, but doesn't reflect our actual experience. Think of all the ineffective or downright hateful businesses you give your money to because there is no practical alternative: cable and internet providers, health insurers, banks, credit cards, ticketmaster, airlines, big box stores, domain registrars...

I find it strange that this comment is getting upvoted. For instance, you can fly to literally the other side of the world in one day for less than two week's pay at even a poorly paying job. Not that long ago, it took a few days to go from Boston to New York on horseback. Credit cards facilitated online shopping and the internet as we know it. As someone whose taken credit cards, I hate giving up the 2.x%, but it's…

I have experienced shockingly mean service in the quasi-private sector. Like idlewords said, it was something where I didn't have a choice.

At the University of Pittsburgh, Sodexho is the exclusive provider of on-campus food. The food and service have since gotten better, but my freshman year, Sodexho had a policy of hiring many ex-convicts for their food service positions. I ate at the sub place on campus a lot because it was close to my dorm and decent enough. The full-time workers there were two men 70+ in age, though maybe the hard living had aged them beyond their years. They had faded ink tattoos visible on their arms and had clearly recently been released from prison after near-lifetime sentences.

I cannot express how much these men hated their jobs. They hated their customers. Every time I ate there and made the mistake of looking them in the eye, I could tell that they wished death upon me and everyone that ever ate a sub made by their hands.

Since then, I have eaten in the private sector, and while every worker is not happy, they are usually at worst indifferent. Never has an employee wished death upon me with malice and hatred like those two sub shop workers.

Re: Ted Kennedy has died

#85

Post by lionhearted »

akd wrote: post #51
spking wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference here is that any exchange with a useless company is on a voluntary basis, whereas any exchange with the government is completely compulsory. If I don't give Useless Company X my money, they go out of business for not adding enough value. If I don't give my money to the government, they garnish my wages, put liens on my house and put me in prison, and continue to run inefficiently whilst piling up massi…

I'm not quite sure as to what your preferred alternative is. You excoriate Kennedy for not having had a "real job," so the mere fact that he is a Senator, rather than the way he conducts himself as a Senator, is what gets your goat. So you would prefer not to have a Senate?

Well, I'm not him, but I'll weigh in - term limits on all civil service would probably be a good thing, and that includes changing roles/branches. Serving the country for a few years with passion and vigor is noble and heroic, but long term civil service risks stagnation, politicking, and corruption.

A Senator going out into the world to work on problems without government behind them would bolster their worldview. Perhaps after two terms in the Senate, a mandatory one or two terms off, then the Senator could run again. But definitely, lifetime politicians are a big potential problem. It certainly seems like they become more brazen and aristocratic over time.

Re: Ted Kennedy has died

#86

Post by JacobAldridge »

stevoski wrote: post #54
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #27

So you're posting this here just in case hackers don't read newspapers?

Right on. Those of us outside the states just don't care that one of your politicians died - unless he was a competent computer expert. I come here for "Hacker News", not political death notices. Shall I post here when a long-serving New Zealand politician dies?

As an Australian, I care.

The influence of America on the rest of the world, particularly insignificant antipodean islands like yours and mine, is massive and the death of Democratic Senator #60 (I'm counting the two independents where they caucus) has potentially large consequences for the power struggle in Washington.

That's it's Teddy Kennedy, long-time driver of Health Care reform at a time when that's either the #1 or 2 issue in the States, makes it even more so. You don't think efficiencies for Big Pharma in the US would affect our health care?

Admittedly, I'm a bit of an amerophile, particularly US politics. The US Electoral College? Possibly the greatest social hack of the 18th Century.

Re: Ted Kennedy has died

#87

Post by gruseom »

JacobAldridge wrote: post #86
stevoski wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right on. Those of us outside the states just don't care that one of your politicians died - unless he was a competent computer expert. I come here for "Hacker News", not political death notices. Shall I post here when a long-serving New Zealand politician dies?

As an Australian, I care. The influence of America on the rest of the world, particularly insignificant antipodean islands like yours and mine, is massive and the death of Democratic Senator #60 (I'm counting the two independents where they caucus) has potentially large consequences for the power struggle in Washington. That's it's Teddy Kennedy, long-time driver of Health Care reform at a time when that's either the…

And the hack to reform it by getting state legislatures to pass majority-wins measures isn't too shabby either.

Re: Ted Kennedy has died

#88

Post by jstevens85 »

spking wrote: post #39
akd wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useless companies which simply take from the productive sectors of the economy are also the rule, with the few amazing companies being the exception. You can't have a new Google or Voting Rights Act every week.

The difference here is that any exchange with a useless company is on a voluntary basis, whereas any exchange with the government is completely compulsory. If I don't give Useless Company X my money, they go out of business for not adding enough value. If I don't give my money to the government, they garnish my wages, put liens on my house and put me in prison, and continue to run inefficiently whilst piling up massi…

Unless you live in a place like North Korea, no-one is forcing you to live in your country. If you don't think your government is spending your tax money wisely, then move. There are many developed nations out there that aren't accumulating huge amounts of debt.

Re: Ted Kennedy has died

#89

Post by [deleted] »

rms wrote: post #84
lionhearted wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it strange that this comment is getting upvoted. For instance, you can fly to literally the other side of the world in one day for less than two week's pay at even a poorly paying job. Not that long ago, it took a few days to go from Boston to New York on horseback. Credit cards facilitated online shopping and the internet as we know it. As someone whose taken credit cards, I hate giving up the 2.x%, but it's…

I have experienced shockingly mean service in the quasi-private sector. Like idlewords said, it was something where I didn't have a choice. At the University of Pittsburgh, Sodexho is the exclusive provider of on-campus food. The food and service have since gotten better, but my freshman year, Sodexho had a policy of hiring many ex-convicts for their food service positions. I ate at the sub place on campus a lot beca…

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