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Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

utexas.edu

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Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#81

Post by mpyne »

icebraining wrote: post #37
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good sentiment, but 'bravery' is not the right word. Those refusing to participate are not really risking much, certainly not their lives (or being captured and tortured for instance). So pretty much different. But considering the world we live in, I'd much rather have Seals on my side. Properly trained ones.

Good sentiment, but 'bravery' is not the right word. Those refusing to participate are not really risking much, certainly not their lives (or being captured and tortured for instance). So pretty much different. Well, not here and now, but there were certainly times when that was not true.

> Well, not here and now, but there were certainly times when that was not true.

Just like there were times when towns needed to have coopers. But like you just said, these aren't that times, so I'm not sure how that's supposed to add to the discussion.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#82

Post by PavlovsCat »

Nrsolis wrote: post #55
PavlovsCat wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is horribly naive, so was Einstein: He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all t…

She was hunted and murdered by organized, trained killers THAT WERE SUPPORTED and FUNDED BY THE CIVILIANS. FTFY. Sorry Bub. Your hands aren't clean there. And don't forget that Einstein wrote the letter to the FDR that kicked off the race to build the atomic weapon. Even HE was asking for the USG to do something that would squelch the evil of Nazi aggression. If you believe that soldiers, airmen, sailors, and Marines…

> Sorry Bub. Your hands aren't clean there.

I totally agree with that. If you look at it as a pyramid, and the moment of a soldier shooting someone as the very tip, a LOT goes into that. There is a bit in Robert Antelme's "The Human Race" where he actually says the supposedly innocent and righteous civil society, with its supposed values, that underpinned and enabled the SS at times stirred up more resentment than the SS itself; at least the SS wore skulls, and acknowledged the existence of the people they were murdering. I am paraphrasing, but my point is, even someone who lived through that horror agrees with you.

> And don't forget that Einstein wrote the letter to the FDR that kicked off the race to build the atomic weapon. Even HE was asking for the USG to do something that would squelch the evil of Nazi aggression.

"I made one great mistake in my life—when I signed that letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made; but there was some justification—the danger that the Germans would make them!"

&

"Had I known that the Germans would not succeed in producing an atomic bomb, I would not have lifted a finger."

> If you believe that soldiers, airmen, sailors, and Marines are mindless drones, boy have you got it wrong.

This however strikes me as a non-sequitur. How does the fact that civilian society can act as mindless drones, too, make soldiers less drone-ish?

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#83

Post by mpyne »

jacquesm wrote: post #53
jebblue wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The problem is that the enemy wants to kill you, without brave men and women who serve voluntarily, you would not likely have the freedom to hold the idea that it's braver to not fight and give in and give up.

Which enemy is that? Try harming (directly) one that is dear to me and we'll see how I feel about not fighting. Try sending me to some country halfway across the planet to further the agenda of a bunch of politicians that make sure they're safe themselves and as far away from harm as they could possibly be and I refuse to budge. Navy seals have given the ability to make that choice to their superiors. Let's just leav…

> Let's just leave it at that I've seen authority abused

So have we all at some point, I'd imagine. Is it your opinion that anything that can be abused should be forbidden?

Because no offense, but that's the same logic in the child's fairy tale about the boy who cried wolf. You're very rightly pointing out that if you make false use of your authority too often that you should expect people to not trust you in the future. But there was a second part to that story: Once the people stop trusting that authority entirely, they can be taken advantage of, just as the wolf did to the villagers' sheep.

As it stands your personal decision to be a conscientious objector is made possible only because enough other people did not make that same decision (a point Orwell makes much better than I can).

So while I won't argue with that decision as it's something only you can decide on, based on your own life experiences, I would also caution that your experiences are not everyone else's experiences and so maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge other people.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#84

Post by PavlovsCat »

jebblue wrote: post #51
jqm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidnapping of several hundred girls from a school." Yes. In Nigeria which is what... like the 5'th largest oil exporter in the world? So who funds these problems that then have to be solved by military invasion? I'm always suspicious.

What ... on earth is your point? That everyone who drives a car is responsible for those poor children? I pray for their safe return.

I think the point was the when a country gets invaded, its economy and politics tend to get restructured in favour of the invader. I wouldn't go so far to say this proves it was engineered, but I think that was the implication.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#85

Post by PavlovsCat »

jebblue wrote: post #64
PavlovsCat wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is pure evil, and someone who shallowly dismisses others as pure evil, is at least slightly evil. Of course, this is my personal definition of evil. However, I stand by it. Traces of nobility, gentleness and courage persist in all people, do what we will to stamp out the trend. So, too, do those characteristics which are ugly. It is just unfortunate that in the clumsy hands of a cartoonist all traits become ri…

I said, "the enemy is at the gate". I dismiss no one. Literature and art are the first things the enemy either takes or destroys, ironic isn't it?

Unless you were being sarcistic, you did seem to imply there are people who are just being evil for the sake of being evil, and talking about "the enemy" makes it sound like a monolith very unlike to anything found on Earth; so I assume that gate is located in fantasy.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#86

Post by Nrsolis »

jacquesm wrote: post #79
Nrsolis wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is your source? LOL.

So you get to use wikipedia but I don't? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7796608

Not for something as clearly politicized as the topic of war crimes by a nation currently at war.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#87

Post by jqm »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #84
jebblue wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What ... on earth is your point? That everyone who drives a car is responsible for those poor children? I pray for their safe return.

I think the point was the when a country gets invaded, its economy and politics tend to get restructured in favour of the invader. I wouldn't go so far to say this proves it was engineered, but I think that was the implication.

Exactly. I don't mean to "prove" nor even "imply". The word used was "suspicious". When these type of problems pop up in resource rich or strategically important locations and it gets a lot of air time on the news and we have to do something because "think of the children!" I am.... suspicious.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#88

Post by Nrsolis »

ratsbane wrote: post #78
Nrsolis wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joshua, I'd like to add that I know people who have had direct contact with Adm. McRaven. That's the "UT guy" you spoke of. I feel like you could do him the courtesy of using his name and rank. And I'd suggest that MAYBE a person who leads highly-intelligent and committed individuals into dangerous situations where there is a significant chance that they might lose their lives knows something about "Leadership" that…

I'm sure spodek meant no disrespect to Admiral McRaven by referring to him as "the UT guy." Likewise I'm sure you didn't intend to show disrespect for Dr. Spodek by referring to him as "Joshua."

I actually do believe that he intended to show disrespect.

And I call all of my friends by their first name EXCEPT when I speak about them in the third person or in the presence of subordinates. Since I don't believe in academic titles inasmuch as they don't confer in him any measure of respect that I am not entitled to, he's "Joshua" to me.

See how that works? I'm at least acknowledging that he is an individual with a name and not that "NYU guy".

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#89

Post by Nrsolis »

jacquesm wrote: post #40
Nrsolis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a horribly naive viewpoint. You've fallen into the trap of making a judgement of someone based on a popular understanding of a particular profession rather than any factual reality. And here are the facts: 1. There is evil in the world. 2. That evil sometimes hurts innocent people. 3. We need some way of protecting innocent people from evil. I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidn…

Is there a Navy Seals action underway to rescue the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram? That's news to me, all I know is there were a few rumors. The problem is not that navy seals could not be deployed to do good, the problem is that they are just as likely to be deployed to do harm. Anne Frank has nothing to do with any of this, the dutch army was of no significance whatsoever (but the dutch resistance was). As for me '…

I think you're missing the point entirely.

The point of the example is to show that without good people who are willing to fight against those who would do innocents harm, those good people get hurt.

I think that if you kidnap little girls, you're evil. I think that if you set off a bomb in a hotel lobby, you're evil. I think if you crash a plane into a building and kill thousands, you're evil.

In my world, if you indiscriminately kill an innocent person to further your political goals then you are evil.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#90

Post by CatheryneN »

Nrsolis wrote: post #25
jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

This is a horribly naive viewpoint. You've fallen into the trap of making a judgement of someone based on a popular understanding of a particular profession rather than any factual reality. And here are the facts: 1. There is evil in the world. 2. That evil sometimes hurts innocent people. 3. We need some way of protecting innocent people from evil. I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidn…

I have a stronger opinion for those who live in safe countries and have no concern for the people who keep them safe and comfortable. The fact that everyone on this thread can voice their opinion freely, criticize openly, and play armchair quarterback on something they may know nothing about should speak volumes. Today and tomorrow is the time for grace for those who have laid down their life in service to our country. US Navy Seals are an elite group who undertake incredibly dangerous missions. They deserve nothing but respect on this Memorial Day. Freedom is never free.
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