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The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

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Re: The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political positions involve decisions about how we use violence to structure society. Such positions can clearly be intolerant, and taking actions to support clearly intolerant positions seems like it should carry the adjective as well. Someone who donated in support of a proposition to kill all the Jews is probably rightly labelled antisemitic, even if they are always polite face-to-face. And yes, surely, such a pro…

Political positions involve decisions about how we use violence to structure society. More germane to democratic industrialized 1st world nations, is how people choose to refrain from violence to structure society. Someone who donated in support of a proposition to kill all the Jews is probably rightly labelled antisemitic, even if they are always polite face-to-face. And yes, surely, such a proposition wouldn't be c…

First, there is no straw man here. A straw man is a misrepresentation of your position, which I then argue against. What I was constructing was a counterexample that fit what you'd laid out but that I assumed (correctly) that you did not agree with. It's a proof by counterexample of the completeness of your framework.

Second, you deny that there is anything incomplete about your framework, and then you pull in hate speech - which 1) it was by no means clear that you had intended to include (adding "unless hate speech" seems to me a materially different position than without it, and real people probably hold both versions), and 2) it is not entirely clear that Prop 8 shouldn't be considered an example of hate speech (though context being what it was, it is entirely clear that we shouldn't be prosecuting people retroactively for it).

"There is no societal problem with propositions which are constitutionally untenable."

There is no inherent societal problem by virtue of a proposition being constitutionally untenable. Many constitutionally untenable actions entail a tremendous societal problem, though - consider the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII. Many would consider temporarily depriving a class of people of rights they'd previously been afforded "a societal problem". In many cases, I think they're clearly correct. Here, I think they're correct but somewhat less clearly (partly due to proximity).

'No, there was a problem with your straw man. Remove that, and you'll find that your position reduces to, "Society should not tolerate speech from people who are wrong." The problem is how such a thing would be adjudicated.

There's a problem with your framework. You don't see the solution because your position is effectively against free speech. You are only for speech you personally label as "tolerant." In a truly free society, one must be free to be wrong. That's the only way it can work.'

First, it should be clearly noted that no one is calling for criminal penalties. These things are adjudicated by individuals deciding who they are and are not comfortable dealing with.

Second, I didn't propose a framework. You'd made an assertion, and I was trying to get at the lines you were drawing around that assertion.

Third, in a free society, you deal with the consequences of your actions - including speech. It's worth noting that this is why capabilities for anonymous speech are so important. There are some consequences we should clearly be going out of our way to preclude; governmental retribution is antithetical to free speech, violence needs to be prevented, &c. But "I said something people don't like, therefore they don't like me as much, therefore they prefer to do business with someone else" is an entirely unavoidable consequence of a free society - the alternative is to force people to do business they don't want to do.

Finally, again, there was no straw-man, and granting that introducing the notion of hate speech solves the issue (of which I'm skeptical) there was a flaw in the framework you'd laid out: the lack of mention of hate speech as an exception.

Re: The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither the timeline of Eich's donation nor the outcome of the prop 8 fight is relevant. Eich has given no indication that he feels differently now than he did then. In other words, he has done nothing to assuage the suspicion that his personal convictions are in radical opposition to some of the most important cultural aims of the Mozilla organization. I'm sad for Mozilla because Eich is a great and rare talent.

Neither the timeline of Eich's donation nor the outcome of the prop 8 fight is relevant. Such an absolute position would be reasonable if the action in question had some sort of permanent or destructive effect. It's entirely unreasonable to treat a political donation or a privately held political belief as if it were a crime with a permanent or perniciously destructive effect. In other words, he has done nothing to a…

Such an absolute position would be reasonable if the action in question had some sort of permanent or destructive effect. It's entirely unreasonable to treat a political donation or a privately held political belief as if it were a crime with a permanent of perniciously destructive effect.

Prop 8 was a constitutional amendment that removed civil rights from a historically oppressed group. That it has been since overturned is largely to the credit of the activists who opposed it before, during, and after it passed.

I can understand this position as well. However, it seems dangerous for us to have a society where we have to be constantly be "saying the right things" or punitive actions are to be taken against us. This does not sound like a free society. Granted, as CEO of Mozilla, he is not in the same position as a typical private citizen, but the principles should still apply. "In radical opposition to some of the most important cultural aims" could just as well be rewritten as "Having political views we don't like."

There is pressure to not have beliefs and practice that are harmful to others. You are free to believe and say whatever you like, but if what you believe and say is "black and white people should not intermarry" or "muslims should be rounded up into internment camps" you are going to face heavy consequences. If you feel you must walk on eggshells because of your views on gay marriage, you may be out of sync with social norms, just as segregationists were in the 60s and proponents of criminalization of homosexuality are today.

"Political views we don't like" - political "views" in the form of many dollars that were intended to and successfully deprived a group of a civil right, and "we" in the form of a vocal, nonviolent nonmajority speaking out online. If you think that doesn't sound like a free society, I think you may not very familiar with what actual non-free societies look like.

Re: The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither the timeline of Eich's donation nor the outcome of the prop 8 fight is relevant. Such an absolute position would be reasonable if the action in question had some sort of permanent or destructive effect. It's entirely unreasonable to treat a political donation or a privately held political belief as if it were a crime with a permanent or perniciously destructive effect. In other words, he has done nothing to a…

Such an absolute position would be reasonable if the action in question had some sort of permanent or destructive effect. It's entirely unreasonable to treat a political donation or a privately held political belief as if it were a crime with a permanent of perniciously destructive effect. Prop 8 was a constitutional amendment that removed civil rights from a historically oppressed group. That it has been since overt…

a vocal, nonviolent nonmajority speaking out online. If you think that doesn't sound like a free society, I think you may not very familiar with what actual non-free societies look like.

Everything is contextual, and you are right, that in a broader context, all of the people discussed, Brendan Eich included, have it pretty good in the global scheme of things.

However, non-free societies look like this:

You are expected to hew to certain viewpoints. It is not enough for you to just be quiet, you have to actively and enthusiastically say and write words supporting the "right" opinion. If you have ever expressed the "wrong" opinion in the past, then this is enough to bring punitive action against you, regardless of the current circumstances, though you might win redemption if you make a loud and public declaration of contrition. Only the expression of a "wrong" opinion is enough for punishment -- no concrete act is required, only the apparent possibility of it. The historical fact of your actual behavior is irrelevant to the above.

As an exercise, the reader can come up with their own examples for groups and governments that enacted behaviors and policies like the above. By doing so, even in a smaller context, one actively promotes social dynamics that inhibit open and free dissent and exchange of ideas. (Also note, that the previous paragraph applies just as well to how men were expected to express their status as heterosexual.)

Political power is always contextual, as is the human social behavior on which it is based. If you are in a context where you have power, and someone is telling you something you don't like to hear, well guess what: Someone is speaking truth to power, and it isn't you. (At least, in their own POV. It's this whole problem of POV and the unreasonable position of adjudicator of correct speech that underlies the notion of free speech.)

Re: The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

#84
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I don't have enough insight into the goings on at Mozilla to say. That said, being a lightening rod and dealing with PR stuff effectively is part of the job of being a CEO, and arguably if he'd performed the job better he'd still hold it - I'm not sure the outcome is ideal, but I'm not going to freak out about it either.

I don't believe any CEO could have done better against the witch hunt Eich faced. I mean, OKCupid was protesting him personally. I've never seen anything like it before, and I'm not sure what, say, Tim Cook would have done if the tables were turned and people had been attacking him for being a homosexual and it was materially affecting the bottom line. I think it would have worked out much the same.

"I don't believe any CEO could have done better against the witch hunt Eich faced."

Perhaps not. Lacking the skills and experience that make a large-organization-CEO, I don't think my inability to think up a strategy means much. I'm also not paid like a CEO. I expect the same applies to you, although I don't know that. Obviously, our collective inability means slightly more.

Re: The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

#85

It's ok though, because this time the mob is right . All those other times the mob was wrong . So long as you can predict exactly which way subjective collective reasoning will go for years into the future you'll be fine.

Ah, so you would have maintained a healthy distance during the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s as well?

Would I distance myself from MLK? no. From the black panthers? yes. There is a vast difference between believing something to be true, and wishing harm upon those who refuse to acknowledge that truth.

Are there any injustices you see in the world that aren't also the popular opinion in your peer group?

Re: The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based upon the thoughtless drivel that I see spewed across Twitter, I don't see how it could be considered political activism of any sort. It takes no effort and no risk to shout something on Twitter.

It takes little effort or risk to walk down the street and shout, either. What matters is that the people in both situations are expressing their support for one side of an issue. That it doesn't meet your standards for intelligibility isn't really material. A vote is not eloquent, but it is a powerful statement when millions do it at once and with one object. It is the same for public demonstration.

A vote is not eloquent, but it is a powerful statement when millions do it at once and with one object. It is the same for public demonstration.

Just because something is a vote or a demonstration doesn't make it good or just. Just because millions say or do something doesn't make it good or just either. It's justice when what the millions say or do is just because they are applying first principles of justice. If you look at history, when millions have enacted injustice, every single time they also had flowery-sounding justifications for it. Also, if you dig deep enough, along with any injustice, you will find some kind of double standard accompanied by a notion that amounts to "but we're right and they're wrong."

Re: The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such an absolute position would be reasonable if the action in question had some sort of permanent or destructive effect. It's entirely unreasonable to treat a political donation or a privately held political belief as if it were a crime with a permanent of perniciously destructive effect. Prop 8 was a constitutional amendment that removed civil rights from a historically oppressed group. That it has been since overt…

a vocal, nonviolent nonmajority speaking out online. If you think that doesn't sound like a free society, I think you may not very familiar with what actual non-free societies look like. Everything is contextual, and you are right, that in a broader context, all of the people discussed, Brendan Eich included, have it pretty good in the global scheme of things. However, non-free societies look like this: You are expec…

If that's what "non-free societies look like", then what we're dealing with is not a "non-free society" (at least, in this dimension):

'You are expected to hew to certain viewpoints. It is not enough for you to just be quiet, you have to actively and enthusiastically say and write words supporting the "right" opinion.'

Show me an example of someone being ousted for remaining quiet.

'Only the expression of a "wrong" opinion is enough for punishment -- no concrete act is required, only the apparent possibility of it.'

A group of people prevented couples that wanted to be married from being married. That is clearly an act. Donation of $1000 toward those ends is not simply holding an opinion.

"The historical fact of your actual behavior is irrelevant to the above."

Again, there was "actual behavior", as a matter of "historical fact".

On the following point the world does look something like you describe (probably too much so):

'If you have ever expressed the "wrong" opinion in the past, then this is enough to bring punitive action against you, regardless of the current circumstances.'

But similarity on one point out of 4 is hardly a strong case.

Re: The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

#88
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe any CEO could have done better against the witch hunt Eich faced. I mean, OKCupid was protesting him personally. I've never seen anything like it before, and I'm not sure what, say, Tim Cook would have done if the tables were turned and people had been attacking him for being a homosexual and it was materially affecting the bottom line. I think it would have worked out much the same.

"I don't believe any CEO could have done better against the witch hunt Eich faced." Perhaps not. Lacking the skills and experience that make a large-organization-CEO, I don't think my inability to think up a strategy means much. I'm also not paid like a CEO. I expect the same applies to you, although I don't know that. Obviously, our collective inability means slightly more.

Well, I'm thinking more about what I have seen CEOs of large corporations do before. I'm sure I couldn't do it. But many CEOs have been brought down without half the pressure (see, for example, the history of Yahoo), so it's hard to imagine anyone could withstand that kind of storm.

Re: The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a vocal, nonviolent nonmajority speaking out online. If you think that doesn't sound like a free society, I think you may not very familiar with what actual non-free societies look like. Everything is contextual, and you are right, that in a broader context, all of the people discussed, Brendan Eich included, have it pretty good in the global scheme of things. However, non-free societies look like this: You are expec…

If that's what "non-free societies look like", then what we're dealing with is not a "non-free society" (at least, in this dimension): 'You are expected to hew to certain viewpoints. It is not enough for you to just be quiet, you have to actively and enthusiastically say and write words supporting the "right" opinion.' Show me an example of someone being ousted for remaining quiet. 'Only the expression of a "wrong" o…

Show me an example of someone being ousted for remaining quiet.

In this situation, Brendan Eich would probably have been better served by saying less, though that would probably not have changed the outcome. Is your position that weak that you are really reduced to this degree of nitpicking?

A group of people prevented couples that wanted to be married from being married. That is clearly an act.

In the same manner that speaking is an 'act.' Imagine a world where the worst villains would donate $1000 to a PAC supporting their view, then quietly accept the outcome and get on with their work. That world would be a utopia compared to this one.

Again, there was "actual behavior", as a matter of "historical fact".

This entire line of argument only makes sense if you believe that there is a clear "right" and "wrong" and that you are in a perfect position to judge which is which. In a free society, there is no one in such a position, and those who value a free society would be unwise to advocate the punishment of such expression, even if it's technically legal and resembles "civil actions" of the past.

Seriously, watch some documentaries about repressive regimes. Talk to people who understand these principles and have lived in such places. There is a compelling reason why free societies should tolerate unpopular opinions, and why such tolerance should go above the minimum required by the law.

But similarity on one point out of 4 is hardly a strong case.

I think your nitpicking speaks for itself for those who are mindful of principles and will appear as some kind of stirring justification to those who are of the mind "but we're right and they're wrong."

Re: The Excuses for Purging Brendan Eich Are the Old Excuses for Firing Gays

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's what "non-free societies look like", then what we're dealing with is not a "non-free society" (at least, in this dimension): 'You are expected to hew to certain viewpoints. It is not enough for you to just be quiet, you have to actively and enthusiastically say and write words supporting the "right" opinion.' Show me an example of someone being ousted for remaining quiet. 'Only the expression of a "wrong" o…

Show me an example of someone being ousted for remaining quiet. In this situation, Brendan Eich would probably have been better served by saying less, though that would probably not have changed the outcome. Is your position that weak that you are really reduced to this degree of nitpicking? A group of people prevented couples that wanted to be married from being married. That is clearly an act. In the same manner th…

"[Preventing people from being married is an act i]n the same manner that speaking is an 'act.'"

I'm done here. You clearly have no connection to reality, and this is distracting from more important matters.

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