Inclusiveness at Mozilla • Hacker News Board

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#81

Post by azinman2 » Wed, Mar 26, 2014, 7:58 PM UTC

macu wrote: post #30

thirsteh wrote: post #15

He is sorry like the NSA is sorry you found out what they've been doing. Brendan Eich doesn't just dislike gays getting married. He hates the concept so much he officially donated to prevent it from being possible. I'm sorry, but I don't sympathize with the argument that he's "entitled to his opinions," because it's more than that. Nevermind that he's now CEO of Mozilla. (I personally don't care if gays can get marri…

I haven't seen a single grain of evidence in support of the claim that Brendan Eich hates gay people. He said it himself, "the donation does not in itself constitute evidence of animosity." And I can stand behind him on that. I'm gay and I also find the cultural crusade for gay marriage objectionable. I more go along with the views of the Against Equality group. But since it appears that gay marriage is going to happ…

That's just silly. The donation itself shows that he's willing to spend $1000 (not insignificant!) to impede on someone else's rights. It's a pretty hateful action -- while he may not "hate" gay people it's certainly more on that side of the spectrum than to "love".

Even if you're not for gay marriage yourself, why would you want to stop that ability someone else for whom that's important? There are very few things in life that are truly truly significant for someone, and for many family is one of them. Wanting to put a wedge in that for someone else IS a hateful action.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#82

Post by yeukhon » Wed, Mar 26, 2014, 7:58 PM UTC

freshyill wrote: post #31

hapless wrote: post #11

He just wanted to take an opportunity to "express [..] sorrow at having caused pain." Eich does not regret his actions, he's just sorry that you felt pain because of the things he did. Classic business-ese non-apology.

Question I would ask Brendan Eich: Should gay people be allowed to get married, and if not, why?

You want the answer yes, someone else wants the answer "no". What's the point. If you believe in gay marriage, ask your congressmen to make it legal nation wide. Law is law, belief and laws don't always get along. As a citizen of a country you accept the law and keep your own belief. That's how people live.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#83

Post by zabraxias » Wed, Mar 26, 2014, 7:58 PM UTC

bluthru wrote: post #25

Would Mozilla appoint someone to CEO who donated $1000 towards a campaign on banning interracial marriage? Is being against same-sex marriage ok as a personal opinion just because we're in the transition period?

He didn't donate to a campaign banning interracial marriage though and the example isn't the same. Furthermore he is one of the founding members of Mozilla and his contributions give him a certain level of respect within the organization.

I am worried I'll start sounding like an apologist for Eich even though it's not my role. On a different note I think the board should've brought in an outsider for the role so they can leverage experience that Mozilla might currently be lacking.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#84

Post by danudey » Wed, Mar 26, 2014, 7:59 PM UTC

lawl wrote: post #18

I have commented on this issue before [0]. I've been thinking about this again. After reading this I think he still stands to his opinion, that he personally thinks gay marriage is wrong. Obviously he's an idiot, but I think even idiots are entitled to their opinion as long as it doesn't interfere with his work at mozilla . I think that is also what he's trying to say with his blog post. I think he made it pretty cle…

The problem is that of a fundamental issue in character. This is a man who donated a thousand dollars (a not-insignificant sum) in order to prevent a group of people from sharing the same rights as everyone else. What he's saying is that there is a group of people in society who do not deserve to be treated the same as everyone else.

I don't really care if he changes his opinion or not; I have an issue with people who go out of their way to prevent other people from having something when it loses them nothing.

If there was any sort of reason why banning gay marriage was economically beneficial or caused tangible harm to any group of people, then it would be 'live and let live', but at some point, he decided to attempt to prevent gay people from getting married for no reason other than what effectively comes down to spite. That's not really someone I trust in a leadership position.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#85

Post by azinman2 » Wed, Mar 26, 2014, 7:59 PM UTC

What's left unsaid is the reason why this was called into question at all -- his financial support of Prop 8 -- and why it shouldn't be an issue at Mozilla. Inheriting an existing culture of openness and maintaining its status quo is not progress nor a reversal of his position on gay marriage. If anything the omission of any reference to it simply shows that his own personal views haven't evolved at all -- he's just willing to put them at bay while at Mozilla (especially when people make a stink). While that itself is helpful to know, his inner thought process which drives any decision he makes hasn't been addressed.

This reminds me of seeing at Google the results of an internal survey on LGBT issues. The responses from some engineers, particularly from Russia, were so shockingly hateful it was truly frightening. I'm not sure why engineers who should be logic driven can become so irrationally hateful towards others who are unlike themselves. Giving $1000 to prevent someone else from getting married is quite a statement on his value structures.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#86

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Mar 26, 2014, 8:00 PM UTC

bluthru wrote: post #25

Would Mozilla appoint someone to CEO who donated $1000 towards a campaign on banning interracial marriage? Is being against same-sex marriage ok as a personal opinion just because we're in the transition period?

In the late 60s when that issue was being debated? Ya, probably. Today, no.

Gay marriage has gone from outrageous to a viable idea in my lifetime, it will take a decade or two for it to become almost universally accepted as the "right thing" as interracial marriage is today.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#87

Post by GuiA » Wed, Mar 26, 2014, 8:00 PM UTC

macu wrote: post #74

GuiA wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a CEO, you live, breathe and sleep for the company. While the personal/professional division can be easily made for an employee far down on the org chart who does his job for 8 hours and then goes home, can the same be done for a top level executive, let alone the CEO?

This sort of question, in fact the entire uproar, presumes that Brendan Eich is a hateful bigoted person with an agenda, or at least that he has some kind of dangerous impulse we should worry about. Do you think his stomach turns when he's around gay people? I don't believe it for a moment. If anything he probably just feels afraid that someone's going to attack him and accuse him of bigotry. Homophobia and oppositio…

See my other comment in this thread that touches on this point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7476046

I don't think that Brendan's stomach turns when he's around gay people or anything like that. However, I do believe that as the CEO of an entity (especially Mozilla), his beliefs will necessarily influence his actions; and that the particular beliefs highlighted by this action are at odds with Mozilla, thus making him ill-suited for a CEO role.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#88

Post by mikestew » Wed, Mar 26, 2014, 8:00 PM UTC

freshyill wrote: post #31

hapless wrote: post #11

He just wanted to take an opportunity to "express [..] sorrow at having caused pain." Eich does not regret his actions, he's just sorry that you felt pain because of the things he did. Classic business-ese non-apology.

Question I would ask Brendan Eich: Should gay people be allowed to get married, and if not, why?

And you ask this question because it relates to your use of Firefox how? Because that's the only relation you have to Brendan Eich: you use a product that his company produces. That doesn't make you two best buddies and you now get to ask his opinion on gay marriage or whether he likes a big butt on his womenz.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#89

Post by MrZongle2 » Wed, Mar 26, 2014, 8:00 PM UTC

jackmaney wrote: post #48

This is not even close to good enough. I will continue to refuse to use Firefox out of general principle.

So what is good enough?

That Eich resign over his personal opinions? That he abandon his personal ethics for business reasons? That he demonstrate his good faith by paying a modern-day indulgence to an advocacy group?

Or is Eich now irredeemable?

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#90

Post by pcwalton » Wed, Mar 26, 2014, 8:00 PM UTC

sroerick wrote: post #45

[deleted] wrote: post #26

[deleted]

I was in SF last week and visited the Mozilla office to see what it looked like. It looked like a locked door with a surveillance camera outside. I understand the need for security and privacy, but it was a little jarring to see it from Mozilla. I'm sure if I can contacted someone for a tour I'd have gotten a better response, but my perception of the organization has changed a little bit.

Well, like all offices, there are valuables inside.

I know that my team makes a very strong effort to be as inclusive as possible. For example in Rust meetups, which are held at the SF office (and are actually organized by Erick Tryzelaar, who isn't on staff), the whole front space is open.