It Is Time For Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#81

Post by gkoz » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 12:16 AM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #44

krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

There are many huge cultural and socioeconomic implication of Basic Income. Inflation is dependent on money supply, you don't need to print new money to apply basic income. You would worry as much of its inflation impact as you would for bailing out banks, if its the same printing. Its not a BI specific concern. Pricing, on the other hand, would probably change drastically, as there would probably be a solid market o…

Do you assume people would be spending their BI rationally? Spending everything on gambling and drugs would still be possible, having more than the least possible income by shady means would still appeal to some. It seems to me reasons for crime wouldn't be exactly destroyed.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#82

Post by ethana » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 12:17 AM UTC

benched wrote: post #45

ethana wrote: post #34

So what should the basic income be? $10k/yr? 20k? 50k? 100k?

It should be tied to some indexes that reflect the cost of living. If it's impossible to actually live a very minimal life on the basic income, there's not much point, as you'll still have to work and be under stress about making ends meet.

So basic income is the minimum living cost? What if minimum cost of living increase every year as it does? What if you live in San Francisco where the standard of living is crazy high? Do the citizens of S.F get a higher basic income than say Milwaukee?

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#83

Post by conanbatt » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 12:17 AM UTC

whyme wrote: post #48

Obviously this is not a new idea... Twenty years ago I sat around with college mates, in Canada, listing the merits of the "Guaranteed Income" and quite frankly I still support the idea today. If you took all the salaries, property and operations cost associated with distributing old age security, welfare, disability, unemployment wages etc etc, it would probably pay for much of the cost associated with the Guarantee…

I agree with this sentiment, and money is without a doubt a huge obstacle in properly reassigning and redistributing resources. It allows hoarding more than any other asset, being so abstract and thats a fundamental flaw in its mechanics.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#84

Post by Klinky » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 12:18 AM UTC

ericHosick wrote: post #30

Real questions because I'm not an economist. If I have money does that mean I am assured that the goods required to fulfill my basic needs exist and can be purchased by that money?

No. Simply having money means nothing. This is true for all economies. It's entirely up to society accepting the currency you have to produce the goods you desire.

In a basic income society, the amount received should be based off of indexes for items/services deemed necessary to meet some basic quality-of-life thresholds. If the private sector cannot provide items/services to meet those thresholds, then the government should step in to provide them, until the private sector can provide it more efficiently(if possible).

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#85

Post by MartinCron » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 12:18 AM UTC

encoderer wrote: post #76

krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

During boom times, yes. During those times I think we would reduce it -- but not eliminate it -- or severely means-test it. But when the economy is not performing efficiently -- the way things are now for example -- this will do nothing but increase aggregate demand. Think about inflation like this: More bidders for the same goods and services. Well, right now there are goods and services on the sidelines.

severely means-test it

Means-testing is where a lot of the cost of social welfare systems comes into play, and where nearly all of the moral hazard starts (making it more expensive to work than to not work). It's best to keep means-testing out of it altogether.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#86

Post by conanbatt » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 12:18 AM UTC

MrZongle2 wrote: post #77

So let's assume this was implemented. Some citizens, with their guaranteed basic income, will spend it wisely to cover their needs...as envisioned by proponents of this approach. Others, however, will waste their income and again find themselves short of what is necessary to cover their needs. What then? Simply increase the amount of basic income awarded, and hope that by throwing more money at the symptoms of povert…

They will get jobs to supplement their income, if they living expenses are higher than the BI. And if they always spend more, they definitely have the same problem today.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#87

Post by Adam503 » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 12:19 AM UTC

ethana wrote: post #58

Basic income already exist for some people, it's extended unemployment checks + food-stamps.

If a person were getting 10x the amount a person gets on unemployment + food stamps, you might be able to call that basic income.

Please show us all how a person living in a US city could survive on food stamps, ethana.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#88

Post by afhsfsfdsss88 » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 12:20 AM UTC

I want to live in a society of people who are working together to make human existence meaningful. What I don't want is the pseudo-free market designed to further despotism and self-interested behavior which we have today.

That said, I'm not for giving someone food, shelter, water, and health care for falling out of a uterus. You have to contribute in some measurable way. Also I believe that we should provide, specifically these things...NOT currency/income.

I've seen too many examples of people having children for well-fare checks.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#89

Post by conanbatt » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 12:20 AM UTC

tomphoolery wrote: post #64

Providing a basic income for all people, regardless of their merit to the society as a whole, is problematic. It's not enough to just hand over a couple hundred dollars to someone and say "have fun". We need to ensure everyone is getting the proper basic services, first. I'm talking about shelter, food, water, and a basis for living comfortably. We have the resources to do this, today. We just don't have the distribu…

It is absolutely reasonable, but its way easier to provide BI than to provide that infrastructure. Its cheaper, and allows people to have more freedom to pick between options.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#90

Post by tim333 » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 12:21 AM UTC

belleruches wrote: post #28

I'm in favor of this. Do we have any examples where this has worked before?

You could argue the system in the UK provides similar payments and could be called a basic income system if you rebrand it. Basically the system comes out roughly as:

Zero earned income. You get about £60-200 from the state per week so lets call this a £60 basic income. Typical unemployed.

Annual income £12K. No tax and no subsidies. We could rebrand as £60/wk basic income = 3K/yr and and 25% tax on the 12K. Typical minimum wage earner.

Income £50k. Roughly £35K in your pocket, £15K tax. Rebrand as 18K tax less 3K minimum income.

The system kind of works. One of the main problems is that there is a very steep effective marginal between zero income and minimum wage - a lot of people end up about equally well off in the short term whether they do nothing or flip burgers. This would be better under a straight basic income system.

I think you could improve the basic income set up by something like karma points where you get a bit more money if you are productive even if it's doing something unpaid like charity work or writing poems and less if you are criminal etc.