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America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

theatlantic.com

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Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#81

Post by matwood »

test1235 wrote: post #7
samstave wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every cop should be required to were a gopro on their chest. Anyone who has any encounter with a cop should have protected rights to access and review that video as material evidence in their case.

... then maybe people will realise how unfairly vilified the police are, and what a tough job it actually is.

... then maybe people will realise how unfairly vilified the police are, and what a tough job it actually is.

You would think police departments would jump at the opportunity to wear cameras for this very reason, but they have routinely fought it.

A town I lived in the cops fought dash cams for a long time saying they couldn't get enough money to install them. Finally the state supreme court stepped up and started throwing out all DUIs without dash cams and amazingly all squad cars had them installed very quickly.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#82

Post by pstuart »

jcalvinowens wrote: post #75
MaysonL wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're advocating putting cigarette manufacturers in jail? If not, why not?

Hell yes. For life. That we as a society allow groups of men to make billions selling a tremendously addictive product that has unequivocally been shown to kill its users is, for me, absolutely heinous.

What about brewers and distillers? Alcohol is responsible for 10s of thousands of deaths in the U.S. alone.

Or maybe you like a drink now and then....

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#83

Post by jcalvinowens »

pstuart wrote: post #82
jcalvinowens wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell yes. For life. That we as a society allow groups of men to make billions selling a tremendously addictive product that has unequivocally been shown to kill its users is, for me, absolutely heinous.

What about brewers and distillers? Alcohol is responsible for 10s of thousands of deaths in the U.S. alone. Or maybe you like a drink now and then....

> Alcohol is responsible for 10s of thousands of deaths in the U.S. alone.

Nope: _Abuse_ of Alcohol is responsible for 10s of thousands of deaths in the U.S. alone.

You don't have to abuse cigarettes: you just use them, and they kill you.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#84

Post by drblast »

ianferrel wrote: post #78
gnaritas wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raising the chances of is not at all the same as happened. Excessive speeding can be a civil violation punishable by fines, not jail. Civil infraction != crime. > If there was a statistical link between a drug and increasing the chance of the user committing violence would you still consider drugs victimless Yes I would. Consuming drugs never creates a victim, that is an indisputable fact, you cannot victimize yourse…

Is there any action that is potentially dangerous enough that an instance of it in which no one happened to be harmed should be a criminal offense? Say I walk down the street firing a gun randomly, but I don't strike anyone with a bullet. Civil remedies only?

I think we have laws that cover those cases. Attempted murder not being the same as actual murder even though the only difference might be bad aim and all that.

If by firing randomly you were assured nobody else would be hurt, would anyone still care? The real problem with firing randomly is that you can't ensure nobody will get hurt.

Taking drugs is two steps removed from that. The idea being that by taking drugs, you are more likely to walk down the street firing a gun randomly, therefore a criminal. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#85

Post by angersock »

dethstar wrote: post #61
jcalvinowens wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality I'm curious what you say to the argument that manufacturing and profiting off extremely addictive and harmful drugs (ie meth or heroin) is a victumful crime? Many people get "hooked" on drugs like this, and it often ruins them both physiologically and financially. How can you justify ignoring such people as victims? Especially if they wer…

Not only that, people consuming illegally acquired drugs are empowering drug cartels and here's the kind of situations it leads to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3nIfE0AUys P.S The video contain very explicit images and commentary. Here's a roughly translated quote to give you an idea: "During December there were 14 girls between 11-12 year old raped"

If those drugs were legal those bastards would never be able to compete with Merck or Bayer, and would go away forthwith.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#86

Post by angersock »

jcalvinowens wrote: post #75
MaysonL wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're advocating putting cigarette manufacturers in jail? If not, why not?

Hell yes. For life. That we as a society allow groups of men to make billions selling a tremendously addictive product that has unequivocally been shown to kill its users is, for me, absolutely heinous.

So, what do you say about McDonalds?

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#87

Post by jcalvinowens »

angersock wrote: post #86
jcalvinowens wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell yes. For life. That we as a society allow groups of men to make billions selling a tremendously addictive product that has unequivocally been shown to kill its users is, for me, absolutely heinous.

So, what do you say about McDonalds?

> So, what do you say about McDonalds?

Come on...

Same answer: _Abuse_ of food kills people.

Occasionally eating McDonalds on road trips isn't good for you, sure, but it's not going to meaningfully harm you in the long run unless you do it frequently.

I've read articles pointing to physically addictive effects of fast food, but comparing that to nicotine is silly.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#88

Post by AnthonyMouse »

arg01 wrote: post #66
gnaritas wrote: post #3

America has a prison industrial complex and corrupt justice system problem. There wouldn't be black markets for drugs if we stopped jailing people for victimless crimes to begin with. No victimless crime should result in criminal charges. Going to jail should never be a possibility when there's no victim.

I'd assume you do agree that excessive speeding constitutes a crime as a it raises the chances of inflicting injury on others. If there was a statistical link between a drug and increasing the chance of the user committing violence would you still consider drugs victimless? I raise the point as someone who is quite happy to support marijuana and alcohol use, but believe the definition of victimless is not an easy one…

> I'd assume you do agree that excessive speeding constitutes a crime as a it raises the chances of inflicting injury on others.

That is a poor assumption. The government is incompetent (and corrupt) to choose what course of action best manages risk.

The better answer is to make people (and their insurance carriers) liable for the damage they actually cause. If you drive too fast and kill someone, you should be liable for a Very Large sum of money. If you drive 90MPH and cause no damage, you should be left to your devices. If driving fast has a high correlation to causing damage then insurance companies will figure out a way to charge higher premiums to people who take more risks (with risks defined scientifically by statisticians rather than corruptly by politicians), and the higher premiums will either deter the risky behavior to the extent that the damage caused by the risk is in excess of the value of getting there faster to the driver, or alternatively cause the driver to pay money in the amount necessary to compensate for the risk being imposed on others.

There is no need for criminal penalties, which do nothing but create animosity between the police and the population, encourage lawbreaking, encourage the police to issue unwarranted citations (and set inappropriate speed limits or unsafely short yellow lights) in order to generate revenue, etc.

The same applies to illicit drug use. If there are negative externalities then require purchasers to carry insurance, or impose a tax, and use the money to mitigate or compensate for the damage actually caused.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#89

Post by btilly »

Microeconomics 101.

Better enforcement leads to higher prices leads to a more profitable black market profits leads to more criminal behavior.

BTW when people say "foo 101" they usually mean "it is basic". But this time that really was the course where I learned this. (Black markets are an elementary application of supply/demand curves.)

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#90

Post by AnthonyMouse »

ianferrel wrote: post #78
gnaritas wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raising the chances of is not at all the same as happened. Excessive speeding can be a civil violation punishable by fines, not jail. Civil infraction != crime. > If there was a statistical link between a drug and increasing the chance of the user committing violence would you still consider drugs victimless Yes I would. Consuming drugs never creates a victim, that is an indisputable fact, you cannot victimize yourse…

Is there any action that is potentially dangerous enough that an instance of it in which no one happened to be harmed should be a criminal offense? Say I walk down the street firing a gun randomly, but I don't strike anyone with a bullet. Civil remedies only?

> Say I walk down the street firing a gun randomly, but I don't strike anyone with a bullet. Civil remedies only?

Why not? If you are in actual fact endangering people then you are risking the severe criminal penalties that would be imposed if you hit someone. That is enough to deter anyone acting rationally. On the other hand, if you are not deterred because you have somehow ensured that your actions will cause no damage, why should your actions be prohibited?

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