Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 144 posts

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#81

Post by smsm42 »

sergiosgc wrote: post #67
tn13 wrote: post #23

This is really pathetic. I can understand companies being ruthless in maximizing their profits but this sort of move is seriously counter productive. If the wages are not competitive it also means less incentive for bright youngsters to get into these professions. If this kind of agreements become more common, I think that will be like we killing our future.

Companies do not, usually, plan decades ahead. They manage the next quarter and plan the next three years. Youngsters entering or not a professional area is something that takes 20 years to produce a measurable effect. Government, is the one that should do the multi decade planning.

Except it never does. All those decade-long budgets and long-term plans are a sham that survives in the best case until next 2 year election, but more commonly till the next budget skirmish that happens once a couple of months. Specific people can have long-term agenda but government as a whole is incapable of that.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#82

Post by sliverstorm »

smsm42 wrote: post #80
pron wrote: post #42

This case is a beautiful demonstration of the dynamics of both "free market" and regulation. Free market dynamics demand (in this case as in all cases) that large players must never compete on prices or wages (as your competitors have the resources to fight back, so competition on price just makes everyone worse off). On the other hand, regulation was used both to stop an exploitation by the market (antitrust), as we…

If large players routinely pay top specialists low wages, they will cease to be large pretty soon, since their talent will be leaving for players paying better money and making those players large instead. Some people, of course, are impatient and want their enormous wage to be even more enormous - and now! And they want it while carrying no risk at all. That's where politicians come in - delivering other people's mo…

You say they will cease to be large, and "pretty soon" at that. You accuse employees of being impatient. But this collusion lasted for nearly five years.

Besides, how can their talent leave for players paying better money when nobody except for the large players can afford top wages? Just because Google can extract $150k+ of yearly value out of an engineer doesn't mean another company can. You need a large, successful business for that...

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#83

Post by mratzloff »

curiousDog wrote: post #27

I'm still surprised Google was in on this considering they are developer friendly and are a "do-no-evil" company to a considerable extent. It was probably pressure from Jobs. Developers hurt by this should squeeze them for every penny possible.

What you have described is Google's "brand image". It is carefully cultivated through PR and marketing to result in you having a positive impression of Google. You could uncharitably call it propaganda.

Google is pretty good at promoting this image, but that's all it is.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#84

Post by discardorama »

The sad part is that even though this behavior is illegal, no one will actually go to jail for this. Companies will pay a token fine (like Pixar and Lucasfilm did), and it'll be business as usual, but this time no emails and no documentation.

Unless a few people end up in jail for this, nothing will change.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#85

Post by walshemj »

smsm42 wrote: post #78
walshemj wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CIPD and other HR regulating bodies need to permanently disbar any member found guilty of this. and for HR directors the the Judge should name them as "not fit and proper persons to be a director" and probably the CEO on Chairman for good measure. Of course if the Hr director turned states evidence they might be let off with a slap on the wrist.

Wait, HR has the bar that you can be disbarred from? Thanks for expanding my horizons, I had no idea.

Its not like a PE or CENG but senior HR jobs often have CIPD qualified as a requirement. At the Director level you can be disbarred.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#86

Post by geebee »

smsm42 wrote: post #77
geebee wrote: post #65

I'm really glad to see that this issue is getting more coverage in the mainstream press. There was an article/editorial a while back (discussed on HN) from the guardian, but unfortunately, the writer used the incident (the collusion) to go on a rant about how valley leaders are hypocritical libertarians. That (reasonably enough) lead to a long debate about whether the leaders are libertarians even if they are mainly…

Is there indeed a shortage of app developers because of the low wages? I was always thinking of software as a segment where entry barriers are relatively low - compared to, say, medicine - and pay is exceptionally good. Of course, everybody wants to be paid better, but it doesn't look like software engineers are suffering especially badly from low pay.

People (including me) often say that barriers to entry are low, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There are no legal barriers to entry. But barriers to being a "mathematician" are also low. But would you say that the barriers to doing meaningful mathematical work are low? It's out of reach of most of the population.

Anyone can hang out a shingle as a software developer, but are the barriers to getting through the technical grilling typical of a software interview process really low? Just because there are no legal barriers doesn't mean that it's an easy thing to learn.

I don't think that software engineers are suffering from bad pay, but is the pay high enough that it makes sense to be talking about a severe shortage that the government should start fixing? Based on pay, I'd say we should take the "software developer" shortage about as seriously as we take the "dental hygenist" shortage.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#88

Post by smsm42 »

sliverstorm wrote: post #82
smsm42 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If large players routinely pay top specialists low wages, they will cease to be large pretty soon, since their talent will be leaving for players paying better money and making those players large instead. Some people, of course, are impatient and want their enormous wage to be even more enormous - and now! And they want it while carrying no risk at all. That's where politicians come in - delivering other people's mo…

You say they will cease to be large, and "pretty soon" at that. You accuse employees of being impatient. But this collusion lasted for nearly five years. Besides, how can their talent leave for players paying better money when nobody except for the large players can afford top wages? Just because Google can extract $150k+ of yearly value out of an engineer doesn't mean another company can. You need a large, successfu…

Five years is not a very long time for a company, and it assumes this collusion actually suppressed wages in a meaningful way, compared to the rest of the industry, which is yet to be proven.

>>> Besides, how can their talent leave for players paying better money when nobody except for the large players can afford top wages?

If their wages are so high already as to be unaffordable for most of the industry, it significantly deducts from my sympathy about them being oppressed by wage-suppressing large companies. To both have wages that nobody except very few very rich players can pay and then complain their wages should actually be even higher and are artificially and illegally low seems to me a bit greedy, not?

>>> Just because Google can extract $150k+ of value out of an engineer doesn't mean another company can.

Another company then sucks at what it is doing if it can't extract value efficiently. But experience shows new players routinely come out to disrupt existing ones. But if Google is able to both extract huge value and pay huge wages - unattainable anywhere else - what exactly is the complaint about? That these wages aren't huge enough yet and could be even huger?

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#89

Post by walshemj »

smsm42 wrote: post #76
walshemj wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better is suddenly all get sick on the same day - sorry boss must have been that dodgy curry i had last night ;-) BA Cabin staff I believe did this in the UK

Sickouts are commonly illegal. Though it is usually impossible to punish the individuals for calling in sick, an organization that promotes it - such as union - may suffer consequences, and organizing such thing may be a firing offense.

Proving it might be hard though and any organizing woudl be probably done by the full timers ie Union officers not activists.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#90

Post by smsm42 »

geebee wrote: post #86
smsm42 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there indeed a shortage of app developers because of the low wages? I was always thinking of software as a segment where entry barriers are relatively low - compared to, say, medicine - and pay is exceptionally good. Of course, everybody wants to be paid better, but it doesn't look like software engineers are suffering especially badly from low pay.

People (including me) often say that barriers to entry are low, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There are no legal barriers to entry. But barriers to being a "mathematician" are also low. But would you say that the barriers to doing meaningful mathematical work are low? It's out of reach of most of the population. Anyone can hang out a shingle as a software developer, but are the barriers to gettin…

I'd say definitely lower than RN. Not to mention all kinds of certifications that can be expensive and time-consuming too. Great software engineers are rare, but common ones are nowhere near the level you need to be to make a significant contribution to math field. And the pay is much better.
Post reply on HN