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Bram Moolenaar responds to Neovim

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Re: Bram Moolenaar responds to Neovim

#81

Post by rcxdude »

aeonsky wrote: post #45
tinco wrote: post #9

Well that does it I'd say. With such a negative attitude, who wants him on the team anyway? What the advantages are? They're clearly laid out in the project. Seriously, screw that guy. edit: Yes I know who 'that guy' is and it's great he's been working on Vim for all these years, but he certainly has his head up his ass if he thinks Vim users would not benefit from some big refactorings, a more accessible code base a…

I still have yet to see these concrete user benefits.

If it makes vim plugins less painful it has a huge benefit for me. I run almost completely vanilla vim in part because the plugin system is so awkward.

Re: Bram Moolenaar responds to Neovim

#83

Post by avenger123 »

tinco wrote: post #9

Well that does it I'd say. With such a negative attitude, who wants him on the team anyway? What the advantages are? They're clearly laid out in the project. Seriously, screw that guy. edit: Yes I know who 'that guy' is and it's great he's been working on Vim for all these years, but he certainly has his head up his ass if he thinks Vim users would not benefit from some big refactorings, a more accessible code base a…

Seriously, totally uncalled for.

I would say that for the majority of people Vim is just working fine.

That 'guy' has been maintaining Vim for years and all he asks for is to donate to his charity.

Also, did you read his response? He doesn't say don't do it. Just wouldn't be easy and some current functionality may be lost. In his mind, it would be better to work on the current code base and do small changes. I would say that's an entirely reasonable response.

It's comments like this that turn people off from working on open source.

Re: Bram Moolenaar responds to Neovim

#84

Post by zimbatm »

pit wrote: post #53
haberman wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neovim is being sold as a VIM refactor, but apparently with no new functionality Where did you get that idea? When I read the project page ( https://github.com/neovim/neovim ), two of the explicit goals are: "Enable the implementation of new/modern user interfaces without any modifications to the core source. "Improve the extensibility power with a new plugin architecture based on coprocesses. Plugins will be writt…

The original mailing list message says: "There's a new project that is called Neovim that seeks to refactor and modernize the codebase"

That's the necessary step 1 to allow further enhancements

Re: Bram Moolenaar responds to Neovim

#85

Post by wpietri »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #74
Pacabel wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A significant problem is that there are a lot of developers today who revere Spolsky as some sort of a god, and absolutely refuse to question or reconsider anything that he has written. This trend is particularly bad with those who've gotten involved with software development since 2005 or so. I chalk it up to a lack of experience with massive, multi-decade software projects. If all a developer has worked with are sm…

An even bigger problem, in my opinion, is the idea (usually only implicit) that any advice can apply to the entire panoply of software development. As though writing Flappy Bird and writing control software for the Falcon 9 weren't as different as banging together some shelving using plywood from home depot and machining custom components from exotic alloys using a lathe. An important part of maturing as a developer…

A related problem, or maybe the same problem in a different outfit, is the notion that my personal experience is enough for me to opine on all software everywhere.

For me there's a useful sort of arrogance, the "I could code that in two weeks even if I don't know the language" kind of arrogance. I say useful, because that had gotten me to jump into projects that I never would have dared touch.

But the dangerous side of that arrogance is, "I know enough to say what what these other people are doing is stupid". Every time I learn a new sort of software or a new domain, I am reminded that it's much easier to make bold pronouncements from ignorance than from knowledge.

Re: Bram Moolenaar responds to Neovim

#86

Post by _delirium »

kbrosnan wrote: post #80
haberman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With that thinking we never get Linux (NeoMinix), tmux (NeoScreen), Clang (NeoGCC), WebKit (NeoGecko), Subversion (NeoCVS), or Vim itself (NeoVi/Elvis/Stevie/etc).

WebKit does not work for your analogy. WebKit and Gecko are two completely separate HTML parsing engines. Maybe you ment neo-kHTML.

There's also Google's Blink, the Neo-WebKit.

Re: Bram Moolenaar responds to Neovim

#87

Post by kzrdude »

perlgeek wrote: post #13
CJefferson wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an overly simplistic viewpoint. Vim is written in an inedibly old style of C which is not taught anymore, or used by most people. The code if fill of typedefs for AMIGA and OS/2. Useful to a small number of people certainly, but making progression harder too. This is not a total rewrite, it is a massive overdue refactoring.

> The code if fill of typedefs for AMIGA and OS/2. Useful to a small number of people certainly, but making progression harder too. Sounds like the code of pretty much every non-trivial C program that is meant to run of many platforms, not just the five or ten most popular ones. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, just that I don't know any good alternatives that don't sacrifice compatibility with lots of platf…

It should say ifdefs, not typedefs. Inline ifdef directives everywhere is a real nightmare.

The very first commit in neovim includes this log:

     - Process files through unifdef to remove tons of FEAT_* macros

Re: Bram Moolenaar responds to Neovim

#88

Post by teacup50 »

btipling wrote: post #54
shmageggy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What were the features they submitted? Stuff that's mentioned on the github page or something else?

At Floobits we tried to submit set_timeout/async stuff, and couldn't get anywhere with Bram. Months of work wasted. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/vim_dev/-4pqDJfHCsM%...

Your patches were broken. People spent plenty of time trying to help you fix them.

Your response is to tell the Internet that Vim is wrong for not accepting broken patches?

Re: Bram Moolenaar responds to Neovim

#89

Post by kzrdude »

ggreer wrote: post #50
nhaehnle wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The code if fill of typedefs for AMIGA and OS/2. There's nothing wrong with that as long as those typedefs are properly isolated in some platform-specific header files. It's natural to have an initial feeling of being overwhelmed by that kind of stuff. However, it often turns out that there's nothing to gain from removing that stuff. The only real cost is when people expect a platform to work, but nobody from that pl…

Have you looked at the Vim source? There are a few things in platform-specific headers, but most ifdefs are scattered in actual code. There are even ifdefs in the middle of control flow statements. For example, in RealWaitForChar(): https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/blob/master/src/os_unix... That function is over 400 lines and has over 50 ifdefs. What does it do? It waits for any key to be pressed. Unfortunately,…

I love that if whose condition stretches over 15 lines with inline ifdefs, and then the body of the conditional is just one line without surrounding braces..

Re: Bram Moolenaar responds to Neovim

#90

Post by teacup50 »

ageofwant wrote: post #75
aeonsky wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still have yet to see these concrete user benefits.

You can not see the concrete user benefits of a modernised, cleaned up code base ? Maybe you need to look harder.

"Modernized" means JSON-rpc IPC? If so, no thanks.
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