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The Man Who Built Catan

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Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#81

Post by VLM »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #80
VLM wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for the late post, but its a very stereotypical american board game vs eurogame difference that all the complexity in American board games is in the rules, not in the resulting gameplay, but in eurogames ideally the rules are as short as possible and all the complexity is in the gameplay. The ultimate extreme american game would have something like the entire code of federal regulations for rules, but gameplay…

Chutes 'n Ladders, much like Candy Land, is not a game in the strictest sense: the result is entirely random, and there are no decisions to make. In both cases, the game is only an exercise in following rules, counting, moving tokens around, and winning and losing graciously. There's value in that, but calling it a game is a stretch.

I agree with that interpretation. Unfortunately (old) American board games were mostly like that, resulting in Americans getting their minds blown when someone pulls out a copy of PowerGrid.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#82

Post by tmhedberg »

ntaso wrote: post #61
chimeracoder wrote: post #3

Catan was my first German-style board game[0]. I've since "graduated" on to more complicated games, so I rarely play it anymore, but I find that it's an effective "gateway" German-style board game. Almost all of my friends who have played it love it, and have gone on to try (and enjoy) other German-style games. Catan is nice because it's sufficiently more complex (and well-designed) than Monopoly so as to be interest…

If you like Catan, check out one of the apps for Android/iPhone that uses an algorithm to make the basic setup more fair. I tried one for Android a few times and it was always a close call. The game was much more engaging for players that have a bad start than if you set up the game in the proposed fashion. Usually, the algorithms do stuff like: - if there's a 6 and 8 next to each other, the third field is always a 2…

> - if there's a 6 and 8 next to each other, the third field is always a 2 or 12

At least in the version of the game that I own, if you follow the prescribed setup rules, there can never be an adjacent 6 and 8. The terrain tiles are randomized, but the placement of the numbers on the tiles is deterministic, and results in a spatially uniform distribution of the high-yield numbers.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#83

Post by VLM »

wwweston wrote: post #49
Casseres wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you liked Puerto Rico, I recommend Dominion [0]. [0] http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36218/dominion

I like Dominion, it's got some of the same mechanics and is a an easier game to set up and explain. But it's missing one key thing that Puerto Rico has -- the depth of subtle interaction. Yes, there's some interaction cards in Dominion, but with PR there's this level of play that goes beyond blocking other players and into providing incentives for them to do things with a timing that's advantageous for you (and sligh…

If you want a highly interactive card game, maybe pathfinder card game? Be sure to go on line and print out the errata which is several times longer than the rules as shipped, although its certainly good fun even without corrections,or optimizations. Note its co-op which tends to be pretty binary, people seem to either love co-op or hate it.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#84

Post by michaelochurch »

philwelch wrote: post #32
mdmarra wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monopoly only drags on for hours if you play by silly house rules like $400 for landing on Go, money for landing on Free Parking, or not requiring an auction when passing on purchasing a property. All of these common house rules artificially extend the game by either injecting cash into the game or slowing the acquisition of property. A vanilla game of 4 player monopoly should take no more than an hour.

To me the problem with Monopoly isn't just that it takes forever, but that you can get into a commanding position early and spend most of the game slowly bleeding your opponents to death one by one. Monopoly is a game to resent people over.

Monopoly's predecessor was The Landlord's Game, designed to teach people about the evils of capitalism. You moved around the board, got robbed, it wasn't fun.

Monopoly changed it up by making it possible to become the evil landlord, and that's what made it successful.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#85

Post by michaelochurch »

epsylon wrote: post #58
chimeracoder wrote: post #3

Catan was my first German-style board game[0]. I've since "graduated" on to more complicated games, so I rarely play it anymore, but I find that it's an effective "gateway" German-style board game. Almost all of my friends who have played it love it, and have gone on to try (and enjoy) other German-style games. Catan is nice because it's sufficiently more complex (and well-designed) than Monopoly so as to be interest…

To be honest, Monopoly is really a terrible game. It's mostly a game of luck (getting the good dice rolls). Catan is nice, but it does suffer from the same problem, the dice rolls influence way too much of the game. My personal favorites for long games are: The Game of Thrones board game, which is really awesome with the right set of players because it favors a lot diplomacy and strategy (the biggest problem with it…

Catan really invented the "German" aesthetic. Yes, it has dice, and yes, there's luck; but it deserves a lot of credit because it was the first.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#86

Post by enraged_camel »

graylights wrote: post #9
chimeracoder wrote: post #3

Catan was my first German-style board game[0]. I've since "graduated" on to more complicated games, so I rarely play it anymore, but I find that it's an effective "gateway" German-style board game. Almost all of my friends who have played it love it, and have gone on to try (and enjoy) other German-style games. Catan is nice because it's sufficiently more complex (and well-designed) than Monopoly so as to be interest…

I'd argue that Catan is much less complex monopoly. Just that most people learn monopoly at a very young age so they never notice the complexity. Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration. I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Even though I don't particular care for Catan…

>>Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration.

This doesn't necessarily mean Monopoly is more complex. It just means they used lots of words to describe what is ultimately a fairly simple game.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#87

Post by michaelochurch »

I wish we had more of a board game culture in the U.S.

It seems that most adults end up, just because society is so demanding and competitive these days, with a lot of low-level social anxiety. It's rarely enough that most people notice it, but it keeps people from really relating to each other or learning from each other, and it's a major part of why people become so damn boring, one-sided, and narrowly careerist once they leave school.

There seem to be two antidotes to this low-grade but ubiquitous social anxiety. One is games, the other is alcohol. I don't mind an occasional drink but, most of the time, I prefer the one that sharpens the brain over the one that dulls it.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#88

Post by michaelochurch »

geddes wrote: post #4

Is Catan really Silicon Valley's golf, like the article claims? I'd love to think so but I haven't seen any deals cemented over a game of Catan. Anyone have any stories?

Is Catan really Silicon Valley's golf, like the article claims?

I'd believe it of the old Silicon Valley. The new one, with Snapchat and Clinkle and spider pooping and expensive real estate and multiple liquidation preferences? Probably not. I think golf is the new golf in Silicon Valley.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#89

Post by jon-wood »

mdmarra wrote: post #12
graylights wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that Catan is much less complex monopoly. Just that most people learn monopoly at a very young age so they never notice the complexity. Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration. I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Even though I don't particular care for Catan…

Monopoly only drags on for hours if you play by silly house rules like $400 for landing on Go, money for landing on Free Parking, or not requiring an auction when passing on purchasing a property. All of these common house rules artificially extend the game by either injecting cash into the game or slowing the acquisition of property. A vanilla game of 4 player monopoly should take no more than an hour.

> not requiring an auction when passing on purchasing a property

That rule is so rarely followed I end up in an argument with other players every time I play a game of Monopoly for attempting to play by the rules. People don't even believe that the rule exists, never mind make a conscious decision not to follow it.

The fact games of Monopoly always open with an argument is probably a big factor in me no longer playing Monopoly.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#90

Post by walshemj »

enraged_camel wrote: post #86
graylights wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that Catan is much less complex monopoly. Just that most people learn monopoly at a very young age so they never notice the complexity. Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration. I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Even though I don't particular care for Catan…

>>Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration. This doesn't necessarily mean Monopoly is more complex. It just means they used lots of words to describe what is ultimately a fairly simple game.

Yes I woudl have said that Catan is a lot more complex tactically - Agricola is another good Euro style game.
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