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1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

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Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#81

Post by jballanc »

aortega wrote: post #51
jballanc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Falsifiability is a feature of every element of science. Something that is not falsifiable isn't science. Period. But a Theory is not a guess. It is a framework built from individual pieces, some of which may be hypotheses (effectively guesses) that have been tested and found to hold within the larger structure of that framework.

If you are based in individual pieces that may be effectively guesses, how you are not also a guess?

Try formulating your question again, but this time don't leave out the part where I wrote "that have been tested and found to hold".

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#82

Post by smnrchrds »

omarali wrote: post #13

I thought it's relative to what frame of reference you choose.

As long as you choose an inertial frame of reference, it wouldn't matter. Many people forget that while velocity is relative to the observer, acceleration is not. And we all know moving along a curved path has non-zero acceleration.

Imagine that you are in a vast empty dark abyss without gravity (a.k.a. the space) and all you can see is a transparent sealed container with some water in it positioned above your head. Consider these two scenarios: 1. You are rotating around the axis of your body with velocity Ω, and 2. The container has the velocity -Ω around the same axis. You might expect these two scenarios to be identical. After all, the relative velocity of two objects is similar in these cases. But only if the container is the moving body we will observe that the water is affected by centrifugal[1] force.

It is obvious that earth is rotating around the sun not the other way around. You just have to consider the forces.

[1] I know, I know. And you know it too.

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#83

Post by pavelrub »

waps wrote: post #37

In other news : 3 in 4 hacker news readers don't know the earth doesn't orbit the sun at all. That is an impression created by the fact that the space around the sun moves as a result of gravity. This results in that the location of the earth doesn't change, but as the sun is sucking in space and constantly pushing out it's matter the distance doesn't change. This results in the fact that a straight line path around…

There is so much wrong with this comment I don't even know where to begin. It will suffice to say that this is a huge conceptual muddle, and a great example of where conceptual confusion can lead us if we are not careful. You are confusing 'discovery' with 'giving new definitions', 'reality' with 'a mathematical model that describes...', physics with everyday language, and you also seems to be unaware of what 'orbit' and 'motion' actually mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_(physics)

It should be clear that it can never be the case that by using a new mathematical model we can come to the conclusion that "the earth is standing still". This would be equivalent to inventing a new theory of mind according to which people never get angry. At best, what we can achieve is a new interpretation of the words "standing still", different from what they actually means, under which the earth is doing something else. However, this would simply be a matter of choice, not of discovery, and a pretty bad one at that (see Wittgenstein's criticism of Freud).

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#84

Post by lutusp »

pavelrub wrote: post #83
waps wrote: post #37

In other news : 3 in 4 hacker news readers don't know the earth doesn't orbit the sun at all. That is an impression created by the fact that the space around the sun moves as a result of gravity. This results in that the location of the earth doesn't change, but as the sun is sucking in space and constantly pushing out it's matter the distance doesn't change. This results in the fact that a straight line path around…

There is so much wrong with this comment I don't even know where to begin. It will suffice to say that this is a huge conceptual muddle, and a great example of where conceptual confusion can lead us if we are not careful. You are confusing 'discovery' with 'giving new definitions', 'reality' with 'a mathematical model that describes...', physics with everyday language, and you also seems to be unaware of what 'orbit'…

> It should be clear that it can never be the case that by using a new mathematical model we can come to the conclusion that "the earth is standing still".

Apart from the OP's many outright errors, this one suffers from the defect that it assumes there is only one possible frame of reference. One can obviously choose a frame of reference in which the earth is motionless, but relativity denies any special significance to a particular frame of reference -- indeed, that's what relativity means.

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#86

Post by carsongross »

ballard wrote: post #75
cema wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that scary? If we assume it is indeed a matter of belief the 50/50 chance is not that bad. Now, I suppose both you and me think about it more as a matter of science, but how many people understand what science is (and why), how the scientific method is applied and so on? Well fewer than 50%, I'd guess. US, Europe or Africa, any place.

People that operate outside of coherent, explainable, rational principles tempered by compassion are bigger liabilities. It's common sense. Departing from this is what allows folks to believe violent terrorism to be a viable strategy to "win."

Do you have any evidence for this? In my experience people with largely religious principles tempered by compassion are just as reliable as self-identified rationalists.

There has been plenty of atheistic terrorism in the last hundred years...

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#87

Post by alphydan »

I had a fascinating discussion with an ex trucker in Spain (who after an injury worked selling souvenirs in the old windmills where Don Quijote had once jousted according to Cervantes' book).

When he heard I was a physicist, he apologized in advance for being such a tool ... and then admitted that he thought the earth rotating around the sun was a mistake. He saw the sunrise every morning, always in the East, move around ... and then set in the West. Plus, wouldn't we feel the speed, or even disintegrate if we travelled so fast around the sun?

It was the first time I had encountered somebody who didn't think heliocentrism was possible, let alone other cosmological models. I paused before answering ... but then realized the man was right.

What evidence did he have that contradicted a sun rotating around the sun? He only studied until age 12. He never had a Foucault pendulum. And even if he had had one, the fixed stars idea and the earth's rotation is not the only interpretation.

I asked ... what about the astronauts who have been up there? Surely they must have seen the earth rotating. He was unconvinced. Things seem to rotate when you are very high as a result of vertigo. Could that be the explanation? What about the great speed of the earth he insisted? Wouldn't we feel that? [nobody had ever explained that to him, including his son who was an engineer]

I realized that this man was much more of a scientist than his peers who blindly believe what they are told in school: "the earth rotates around the sun". But ask them a deeper question: What is the evidence? Could the evidence be interpreted otherwise? Are we fooling ourselves (as is very common in science)?

Of course the answer to these questions is child's play for most technical people. There is a ton of evidence. But are the 3/4s aware of it? or do they just parrot the accepted wisdom.

The man turned out to be very smart, having learned the names of all his souvenirs in Korean, Japanese, German, French ... and having strong opinions about the dogmatism that religion blindly accepts.

So it's possible that in that 20% of "non believers" there are true scientists (or Quixotes!) who refuse to believe what they are told before seeing credible experimental evidence that they can reason deeply about.

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#88

Post by lutusp »

smnrchrds wrote: post #82
omarali wrote: post #13

I thought it's relative to what frame of reference you choose.

As long as you choose an inertial frame of reference, it wouldn't matter. Many people forget that while velocity is relative to the observer, acceleration is not. And we all know moving along a curved path has non-zero acceleration. Imagine that you are in a vast empty dark abyss without gravity (a.k.a. the space) and all you can see is a transparent sealed container with some water in it positioned above your head.…

> And we all know moving along a curved path has non-zero acceleration.

Not to give the OP undue attention for what is a truly weird post, but a curved path through curved spacetime (as seen from a different perspective), as with a gravitational orbit, can have zero acceleration.

> It is obvious that earth is rotating around the sun not the other way around. You just have to consider the forces.

That's not obvious at all -- there are no forces at work in a relativistic orbit (because gravity is not a force). The earth and the sun orbit their mutual center of mass, neither experiences acceleration, and neither of them experience a real centripetal or fictional centrifugal force.

Therefore there would be no way to use centrifugal force to argue that one of the bodies has a special role in the orbit. It's easy to see why -- just adjust the relative masses, gradually make the sun's mass smaller and the earth's mass larger, and try to argue that there's a special moment where their roles reverse. Clearly not the case -- regardless of their relative masses they're always equal partners in an orbit, with one of the bodies farther from the mutual center of mass in proportion to its (smaller) mass.

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#89

Post by wonderzombie »

carsongross wrote: post #86
ballard wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People that operate outside of coherent, explainable, rational principles tempered by compassion are bigger liabilities. It's common sense. Departing from this is what allows folks to believe violent terrorism to be a viable strategy to "win."

Do you have any evidence for this? In my experience people with largely religious principles tempered by compassion are just as reliable as self-identified rationalists. There has been plenty of atheistic terrorism in the last hundred years...

What worries me more is people who believe the world is going to end in their lifetimes. How can we plan for the long-term future, as a species, with that kind of worldview?

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#90

Post by lutusp »

carsongross wrote: post #86
ballard wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People that operate outside of coherent, explainable, rational principles tempered by compassion are bigger liabilities. It's common sense. Departing from this is what allows folks to believe violent terrorism to be a viable strategy to "win."

Do you have any evidence for this? In my experience people with largely religious principles tempered by compassion are just as reliable as self-identified rationalists. There has been plenty of atheistic terrorism in the last hundred years...

> Do you have any evidence for this?

The history of religion? The Inquisition, as just one example among many? Being absolutely sure that God is on your side is a powerful drug.

> There has been plenty of atheistic terrorism in the last hundred years ...

Yes, but it can't compare to the well-established historical connection between religion and war.

One example -- try to imagine recent Indian history without the effect of religion, without Muslims and Hindus killing each other at every opportunity, true to the present day.

Another example -- 9/11 wasn't an attack by have-nots against haves, it was a largely successful effort by religious fanatics to snuff out some infidels.

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