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Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

gcc.gnu.org

81–90 of 338 posts

Re: Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

#81
post #16

Stallman consistently ignores the free market when writing about software freedom. What users want, the free market will provide. If they want customizable software, the market will give it to them. If they only want feature X, the market will give it to them. If they want interop., they will get that too. If they don't care about modifying the source code, well, people won't offer it. The GPL is not what allows user…

ESR, is that you? All you did was repeat "free market" a bunch of times. Congratulations.

Besides that, I'm pretty sure when the free market sent down that 10 commandments thing it said not to go around using it's name in vain

Re: Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

#82

This message conflates two issues in an unfortunate way. One issue is the licensing of GCC, the other issue is the architecture of GCC (how modular it is). No one is arguing that GCC should change licenses. But he seems to think that making GCC more modular would somehow make it less free: > If GCC were to change from a free compiler into a platform for nonfree compilers, it would no longer serve the goal of freedom…

This is a good take on the deficiencies of Stallman's position here really.

Linus stands directly against this sort of idea - his whole take on licensing has always been that he wants to make sure people contribute code back if they modify it, but otherwise can include the kernel in whatever they want - which provides a similar benefit - more people using Linux kernels, more people likely to want to improve Linux kernels.

More people using GCC would be great - especially since any 'magic' blackbox components that became useful would start to expose their workings anyway since they'd have to speak to GCC.

Re: Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

#83
> [Clang and LLVM] have been supported by Apple, the company which hates our freedom so much that its app store for the ithings _requires_ all apps to be nonfree.

It's worth pointing out that GCC also "has been supported" by Apple, especially around PowerPC support and the PFE implementation. If you can get past the insane "War on Terror" rhetoric, that is.

Re: Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

#84
post #32

When I finally realized that the FSF is really about being a social movement and that creating useful software is a non-primary goal (or maybe even a non-goal), my level of annoyance with RMS greatly decreased. Of course, along with that, my level of give-a-shit about the FSF and the GNU project decreased proportionally. Stallman wants you to use Free software because it's free-as-in-ideology, not because it necessar…

It's also a social movement that cares about what is the epitome of a first-world-problem.

I would argue instead that it is a movement that is making a strong ethical claim.

Re: Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

#85
post #24
post #5

Context: This discussion originated on the emacs-devel mailing list, where there was a discussion of adding code to company-mode (text completion) explicitly supporting Clang [1]. It was pointed out [2] that RMS has in the past shown a disinclination to incorporate Clang support into GNU projects because of his perception of its encouragement of proprietary software riding the coattails of open source (but not Free)…

Clang is free software.

Clang is also "a non-copylefted compiler that therefore becomes the base for nonfree compilers", which is the problem RMS has with it.

Re: Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

#86
I respect RMS a lot and really appreciate his steadfast promotion of free software (copyleft). But isn't it becoming a moot point in this day and age? A decade or two ago the software tools were important and since all of them were proprietary GNU was sorely needed and all the work done by people on GNU and Linux really was needed. But now the concept of open source and free software (not copy left but just free) has really taken roots and businesses have evolved to circumvent the revenue loss from giving away software. Instead they now created a new closed ecosystem - cloud and hosted services. By moving them away from people's computer they have control and we are pretty much in the same situation as we were a decade ago. So we need a new idea of "copyleft" that applies to services and hosted platforms and not just tools. Isn't it where the battle needs to be now with regards to freedom (as RMS puts it)?.

Re: Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

#87
post #61
post #5

Context: This discussion originated on the emacs-devel mailing list, where there was a discussion of adding code to company-mode (text completion) explicitly supporting Clang [1]. It was pointed out [2] that RMS has in the past shown a disinclination to incorporate Clang support into GNU projects because of his perception of its encouragement of proprietary software riding the coattails of open source (but not Free)…

If LLVM is so bad why are the people who make it so much easier to work with? You shall know a tree by it's fruits. It wouldn't bother me one way or another whether LLVM was copyleft or not, the people who run it are more pleasant to work with. I think the biggest hurdle to people caring about copyleft is the sheer tonnage of disrespect people like RMS show to others. Nobody wants to work with a curmudgeon.

If LLVM is so bad why are the people who make it so much easier to work with?

Who said it was bad? People have said it is not copyleft.

I think the biggest hurdle to people caring about copyleft is the sheer tonnage of disrespect people like RMS show to others. Nobody wants to work with a curmudgeon.

I think that's ridiculous. Do you really think corporate backers of LLVM would just ignore their economic incentives for a non-copyleft compiler if RMS was friendlier?

Re: Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

#88
post #61
post #5

Context: This discussion originated on the emacs-devel mailing list, where there was a discussion of adding code to company-mode (text completion) explicitly supporting Clang [1]. It was pointed out [2] that RMS has in the past shown a disinclination to incorporate Clang support into GNU projects because of his perception of its encouragement of proprietary software riding the coattails of open source (but not Free)…

If LLVM is so bad why are the people who make it so much easier to work with? You shall know a tree by it's fruits. It wouldn't bother me one way or another whether LLVM was copyleft or not, the people who run it are more pleasant to work with. I think the biggest hurdle to people caring about copyleft is the sheer tonnage of disrespect people like RMS show to others. Nobody wants to work with a curmudgeon.

I don't think anyone said LLVM is technically bad; and there's no particular reason that pleasant people with good intentions can't be bad for a community that they don't explicitly identify with.

Re: Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

#89
post #61
post #5

Context: This discussion originated on the emacs-devel mailing list, where there was a discussion of adding code to company-mode (text completion) explicitly supporting Clang [1]. It was pointed out [2] that RMS has in the past shown a disinclination to incorporate Clang support into GNU projects because of his perception of its encouragement of proprietary software riding the coattails of open source (but not Free)…

If LLVM is so bad why are the people who make it so much easier to work with? You shall know a tree by it's fruits. It wouldn't bother me one way or another whether LLVM was copyleft or not, the people who run it are more pleasant to work with. I think the biggest hurdle to people caring about copyleft is the sheer tonnage of disrespect people like RMS show to others. Nobody wants to work with a curmudgeon.

I think the FSF would argue that desperate cases require desperate remedies. You shouldn't expect your army to behave nicely at all times, even while defending your freedom. RMS isn't disrespecting others, he just has been at war so long that he isn't aware of their sensitivities.

Re: Richard Stallman - Re: clang vs free software

#90
"The existence of LLVM is a terrible setback for our community precisely because it is not copylefted and can be used as the basis for nonfree compilers -- so that all contribution to LLVM directly helps proprietary software as much as it helps us."

See, this is why I hate Stallman's position on anything software. It's based on irrational thinking derived from a flawed ideology.

Since LLVM is not copylefted, EVERYONE is able to benefit from it, and that is good... FOR EVERYONE! For example, NVIDIA based their CUDA compiler on LLVM because it was not copylefted. Thanks to LLVM not being copylefted, NVIDIA was able to reduce their R&D time, provide customers with great technology, and consequently sell more products. The money that proprietary companies make from being able to incorporate non-copylefted software into their products has a ripple effect. Companies like NVIDIA can provide more jobs, LLVM developers become more highly sought-after, customers benefit from more rapid advances in the technology, and the entire LLVM-based community benefits from work that filters back down from companies like NVIDIA into the mainline LLVM repo.

Stallman's argument that projects like LLVM help proprietary companies take away users' rights is simply not true. There would be little benefit for a company like NVIDIA to take from the LLVM community, and be unwilling to give anything back. For one, it would be so much harder for them to hire good people out of that community, which they will desperately need in order to drive their products forward. But look at what has actually happened: NVIDIA are releasing the code to their LLVM-based compiler! Why? Because it doesn't really benefit NVIDIA to enforce a proprietary lock-in on their customers.

As for his argument against the Apple App Store, how is it really of benefit to anyone if binaries are "free" the way he thinks they should be? Does anyone really want or need the ability to install a "free" binary onto their iPhone/iPad? Why is wrong for companies to want to protect their proprietary platforms and technology (and also their users) from potentially malicious/illegal code, or code that might brick the device? Oh, that's right! Because Richard Stallman thinks that companies should not be allowed to guard any of their interests when it comes to software. This is an obnoxious opinion, and detrimental to real user freedom.

I do not think the world will suffer AT ALL if clang/LLVM has doomed GCC to irrelevance. I was actually glad to read Stallman's email because it signifies that clang/LLVM really are eroding GCC's relevance, to the point where even Stallman is feeling it. Soon, Stallman and his FSF cronies will be relegated to the footnotes of computing history where they belong.

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