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Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

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Re: Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

#81

Post by killerpopiller »

superplussed wrote: post #67
maciejgryka wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just made the same move, feel free to get in touch if you have any more questions! I've only been here for about 3 weeks so far, so don't have much data, but €500/month for living costs seems easy. Rent, depending on what you want, is probably about 80% of what you pay for a comparable flat in London. You can probably get 2 bedrooms (+living room) with all the bills included for about €800. Just be prepared for…

When people say that it will take 3-4 months to find an apartment, what are they doing in the meantime? Renting short-term apartments such as sublets?

..living your way up, stay in a shitty flat and search from there for a better one.

It depends of course where you are, but we (WG) searched for a new flat five months.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

#82

Post by socialist_coder »

phazmatis wrote: post #36

A little off-topic, but how hard is it for a US citizen interested in having lived in two countries in his life to get a dev job in the EU? I imagine most devs that come in from another country are coming from at least within the EU, and I was just wondering how unheard-of my case would be.

super easy. getting a visa in germany is cake compared to the US. lots of tech / game companies here in berlin / germany will hire americans. just start appplying!

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

#83

Post by maciejgryka »

levosmetalo wrote: post #48
maciejgryka wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just made the same move, feel free to get in touch if you have any more questions! I've only been here for about 3 weeks so far, so don't have much data, but €500/month for living costs seems easy. Rent, depending on what you want, is probably about 80% of what you pay for a comparable flat in London. You can probably get 2 bedrooms (+living room) with all the bills included for about €800. Just be prepared for…

One tip about finding an apartment from another foreigner in Germany... Just find some local friend that speaks local dialect and ask him to call landlords for you. It can make your "time to apartment" much shorter (and cheaper).

That's so true. I'm lucky to have a German-speaking girlfriend and it makes a huge difference.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

#84

Post by efuquen »

Xylakant wrote: post #70
mahyarm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a pretty standard wage for a sr. developer in the SFBA. Big reason why I'm not moving to europe any time soon.

European and US wages are in no way comparable by looking at just the figures. European wages include pension payments, health care, payment for sick days and at least 4 weeks of paid holidays while US contracts often do not provide all of those benefits. This skews the raw numbers massively.

There are definitely factors that make comparing these salaries difficult, but some of the things you listed just simply don't apply to most Software Engineers. Most jobs will offer you good health care for free, not deducted from your wages. Also most jobs won't deduct sick days from your salary and even though 2 weeks is more standard for holidays here I've found that getting more vacation days is not that difficult (depends on the job). As far as retirement, I'm not sure how Social Security compares to whatever pension payments your talking about, or 401k matching that many employers do (still required for you to put money in). But the OP said salaries excluding taxes, I would imagine whatever social safety net is in place would be taken out of your wages in taxes, right? Or maybe the business themselves provide most of this money for pensions and such? Again, not sure how that all works there.

This is all from the perspective of a "Software Engineer", most of what you said would definitely apply to a lower wage job, but not something that's specialized and in demand.

What definitely does factor in is cost of living. The rents i saw listed in some comments are 3 to 4 times lower then what I'm paying in NYC. Also general cost of living outside of that is far cheaper from the numbers I see listed, though that's harder to compare because I don't know how other commenters live, for example I eat out mostly, cook once in awhile. But, I know it's definitely possible to live more cheaply then I do and still end up alright, though it would require more sacrifices (i.e. I can imagine spending half of what I do in rent and general costs and still get by ok).

In short, yah there are differences, but I don't think the main ones are what you listed.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

#85

Post by ulfw »

this_user wrote: post #78
iagooar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may sound low, but compared to the USA, Germany has public health care, free education (up to graduate level), a long, paid parental leave and a lot of other social benefits. This really sums up if you have to pay for all these things yourself.

You are paying for those things, but it's being paid indirectly. Paying 40% or more of your gross income for health care, social security and taxes is another thing that Americans would probably find to be high.

Oh really? And you really pay less in Federal taxes + California State taxes + Medicare + Social Security tax + VPDI etc etc? For me that was 40%+ as well...

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

#87

Post by Xylakant »

efuquen wrote: post #84
Xylakant wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European and US wages are in no way comparable by looking at just the figures. European wages include pension payments, health care, payment for sick days and at least 4 weeks of paid holidays while US contracts often do not provide all of those benefits. This skews the raw numbers massively.

There are definitely factors that make comparing these salaries difficult, but some of the things you listed just simply don't apply to most Software Engineers. Most jobs will offer you good health care for free, not deducted from your wages. Also most jobs won't deduct sick days from your salary and even though 2 weeks is more standard for holidays here I've found that getting more vacation days is not that difficul…

> But the OP said salaries excluding taxes, I would imagine whatever social safety net is in place would be taken out of your wages in taxes, right?

Jein :) The cost for social security is split roughly 50/50 between employee and employer.

The basic point about more holidays is true in germany as well: I know people that have 30 or even 35 days (7 weeks) of holidays. Then there's public holidays that are paid as well in germany (up to 14 per year, depending on where you live) etc.

My basic point was that it's very hard to compare salaries only by looking at the raw figures since the benefits guaranteed or given voluntarily differ massively.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

#88

Post by brightsize »

ulfw wrote: post #85
this_user wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are paying for those things, but it's being paid indirectly. Paying 40% or more of your gross income for health care, social security and taxes is another thing that Americans would probably find to be high.

Oh really? And you really pay less in Federal taxes + California State taxes + Medicare + Social Security tax + VPDI etc etc? For me that was 40%+ as well...

This. I'm always surprised how people think that Europe is going to kill them with taxes in comparison to the States. If I add up all the taxes that you mention for any high-tax US state the sum is going to be right up there pushing 40%, maybe more. The difference is that as far as I can see the Germans, like Canadians, are getting some their tax money back in the form of social services and social protections. Here we just feed it to the military-industrial complex all while carrying on about how "the country is broke".

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

#89

Post by ido »

nader wrote: post #54
ido wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average rent in Berlin is not 1000 eur...Oh, I see they say it's for 85 m^2 in the city center. That's extremely roomy for a single person or a couple.

Rent has exploded in Berlin and is continuing to climb in Berlin. Also if you look outside the city center, i.e. in Friedrichshain, Kreuzberg oder Prenzlauer Berg. As single developer you wouldn't need 85qm, true. As a couple you probably want to have min. 50-60qm. My personal taste obviously, but I have a family with two kids and we need more than that :)

The places you mentioned are all the hippest, most desirable neighborhoods though!

If you look into (relatively well connected parts of) e.g. Moabit or Wedding you'll find prices more agreeable.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

#90

Post by stdbrouw »

efuquen wrote: post #84
Xylakant wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European and US wages are in no way comparable by looking at just the figures. European wages include pension payments, health care, payment for sick days and at least 4 weeks of paid holidays while US contracts often do not provide all of those benefits. This skews the raw numbers massively.

There are definitely factors that make comparing these salaries difficult, but some of the things you listed just simply don't apply to most Software Engineers. Most jobs will offer you good health care for free, not deducted from your wages. Also most jobs won't deduct sick days from your salary and even though 2 weeks is more standard for holidays here I've found that getting more vacation days is not that difficul…

> I would imagine whatever social safety net is in place would be taken out of your wages in taxes, right?

It depends, e.g. in Belgium part of it is paid by your employer on top of your pre-tax wage, and a (larger) part is deducted from your pre-tax salary. Don't ask me why.

I think you're right to point out that there's two different – though obviously related – questions to ask: (a) are companies paying less? and (b) is individual taxation higher?

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