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Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

reuters.com

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Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#81

Post by tedunangst »

rbanffy wrote: post #50
ryguytilidie wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how people keep acting like Brazil is being somewhat evil here by trying to gain leverage...to stop us from constant illegal spying...Yep, super objectionable.

We shouldn't forget the illegal spying happens against American citizens in American soil. I suppose the NSA's charter includes spying on Brazil and they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they weren't spying on us. Much like we probably try to intercept every communication for of foreign diplomatic missions in Brazilian soil.

That's why Obama has his secret conversations inside his tent of secrets. (Not just in Brazil, but the picture of him in the tent happens to be from Brazil.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12810675

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#82

Post by ddade »

Whatever Brazil loses in capability, Rouseff gets back in her relations with her neighbors. I guarantee there's isn't a head of state in South America that hasn't sent her an 'ataboy. Brazil even further establishes itself as the country that matters in South America. That's worth 36 planes that will never fire a shot in anger anyway...

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#83

Post by oscargrouch »

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #46

I'm Brazilian. Here's my opinion: The reason they mention it was the NSA is because the government wants to capitalize on the anti-american commotion (and it's working). The real reason is that Boeing is a competitor to Embraer, so transfer of technology would be limited. Boeing simply had a worse, more expensive offer.

I wouldnt say "anti-american" but "anti-NSA"..

And its pretty deserved, and im saying that also as a brazilian, cause: would you trust in the software, hardware and firmware of those after all we know about the NSA revelations? worse yet , if you think you dont have access to the source code, or to modify any part of it, as a pure blackbox..

Would you trust your country safety and security to something that its very likely to be a trojan horse(somehow), after all we know now?

How can you trust your defense to something or somebody you cant trust at all?

(and lets not forget that Embraer was on the NSA espionage files too)

So, this is not "anti-american", but a pretty wise decision.. forgeting all the politics involved in the case.. Its pretty rational

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#84

Post by mpyne »

AmVess wrote: post #33
doctorstupid wrote: post #14

The U.S. has played dirty against the Saab Gripen before. See the Norwegian section of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Gripen#Failed_bids

Not to mention also killing off Canada's Avro jet company.

Didn't sound like the U.S. killed off Avro, as much as a new Canadian PM did.

But the U.S. did scoop up the ex-Avro employees to bootstrap their fledgling space program.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#85

Post by rbanffy »

msantos wrote: post #57
rbanffy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad I have to point out the VLS launcher has a seriously weird all-solid-fuel design. I am not a rocket scientist, but, as an engineer, I have to wonder what the hell those rocket scientists knew no other spacefaring country did since nobody launches satellites on all-solid-fuel rockets. They cannot be controlled after lit (the VL…

A lot was said about it back then. After the explosion, the Brazilian Space Agency was criticized for using solid-fuel rockets, which are easier to build and ignite than liquid-fuel rockets, but also dangerous because they lack throttle controls and emergency shut-offs. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_rocket_explosion )

And those guys were our elite rocket scientists...

It's sad so many died in the accident, but engineering and rocketry are notoriously unforgiving.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#86

Post by HannibalLecter »

rosser wrote: post #7
_djo_ wrote: post #5

Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. While there's evidence that Boeing's chances were hurt by the NSA revelations, it's not true that Boeing was a clear favourite. Both Saab and Dassault had presented strong bids and were considered serious contenders, particularly as both offered much higher industrial participation and technology sharing than Boeing and…

Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. From TFA: "Until earlier this year, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner... "The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans," a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity." Does it remain a "US-centric view" when Brazil is the party saying, "Because NSA"?

People are opportunists. Of course they'll say NSA was to blame... but then this whole process wouldn't be about airplanes but politics.

When you're choosing a product because of politics and not because of features and benefits -- you're making big mistakes.

NSA spying sours customer support how? It doesn't. Brazil wants to keep America out of Brazil? I can see that but it's not about this spying business... or they would never have accepted the bid.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#87

Post by PauloManrique »

oscargrouch wrote: post #83
hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #46

I'm Brazilian. Here's my opinion: The reason they mention it was the NSA is because the government wants to capitalize on the anti-american commotion (and it's working). The real reason is that Boeing is a competitor to Embraer, so transfer of technology would be limited. Boeing simply had a worse, more expensive offer.

I wouldnt say "anti-american" but "anti-NSA".. And its pretty deserved, and im saying that also as a brazilian, cause: would you trust in the software, hardware and firmware of those after all we know about the NSA revelations? worse yet , if you think you dont have access to the source code, or to modify any part of it, as a pure blackbox.. Would you trust your country safety and security to something that its very…

Our government is left-wing oriented and totally anti-american on his core. We are on the way to become Venezuela 2.0 which is on it's way to become Cuba 2.0.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#88

Post by GigabyteCoin »

This is sickening. I live in Canada, and this directly affects a friend's family of mine considerably.

Both my friend and his father are full time factory workers at a company called "Goodrich". They machine landing gear primarily for Boeing jets.

This means less available-overtime at the very least (which many of the workers rely on), and possibly lost wage increases in the future. Who knows.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#89

Post by a3n »

neves wrote: post #17

Mirian Leitão is anti-governist and one of the main economical commenters of Brazilian media. She says that it was the NSA that kept Boing off the deal: http://oglobo.globo.com/economia/miriam/posts/2013/12/18/com...

"kept Boing ..."

It's Boeing, with an 'e'.

Mnemonic: "Boeing planes don't go boing." :)

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#90

Post by sleepyK »

The Gripen is simply the most cost effective choice of aircraft.... It already uses a lot of American technology, so backdoors probably exist, but it is a newer design than the old airframe of the FA-18, and it's easier to service than the Rafale. The IAF had conducted multiple tests during their MMRCA competition, and Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen came out as a equally matched, with some saying that the Typhoon was an inferior plane. In the end, Rafale won the Indian competition because of intense lobbying by the French, with their Premier paying a visit to India to clench the deal.

Saab was very open for transfer of technology at that time, and I imagine it still is, which would be one of the biggest factors in their favour. There have also been some rumors about the less than stellar performance of the Rafale in recent conflict situations which I'm sure also contributed to the deal.

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