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Fedora 20 released

docs.fedoraproject.org

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Re: Fedora 20 released

#81

Post by Sanddancer »

dignan wrote: post #50
Sanddancer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think bigger than Linux. Think those with freebsd boxes, netbsd boxes, solaris boxes, etc. They're all very much relevant, but left out in the cold by deliberate decisions of the systemd folks to eschew compatibility. Functionality-wise, journald has no way of acting on the messages it receives. With syslogd, it's fairly trivial to write a script that will send a nagios alert every time a service is restarted, for ex…

systemd itself provides the functionality to run commands at points during the lifecycle of a service[1]. As for the people in mixed environments, you can forward journald to syslog [2]. [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.serv... [2] http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/journald.con...

That's a tiny sliver of what you can do with syslog piping. For example, fail2ban works by piping the contents of the auth stream of syslog -- usually also put into auth.log -- into a script that monitors for bruteforce attempts. This kind of reactivity is a lot harder on journald configurations.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#82

Post by mcpherrinm »

darkarmani wrote: post #73
astrodust wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RedHat Fedora makes no apologies for dropping legacy support. Heck, they threw out ifconfig in Fedora 19. It's good to be dropping things like syslogd from the default distribution, and the only reason it was ditched was because syslogd is behind the times. Yes, syslogd does more. If you want those features, install it. Forcing it on everyone, regardless, serves no purpose.

> RedHat Fedora makes no apologies for dropping legacy support. Heck, they threw out ifconfig in Fedora 19. WTF? Is that because Linux was becoming too easy to use? They have to keep changing it up, so the certification classes have new material to teach. Why wouldn't they keep the command around and wrap whatever re-invented mousetrap replaces it so millions of people can keep typing ifconfig?

ifconfig was deprecated on linux long ago. While it is compatible with other unixes, it doesn't really map onto the capabilities of the modern linux stack well.

`ip` really is a better tool, and you're doing yourself a disservice if you're not using it, especially if you have anything more than the basic single IP/default gateway network.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#83

Post by hdevalence »

darkarmani wrote: post #75
bkor wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of users will have "Logs", an UI for the journal. Because journal logs more and allows more things, the UI will be more useful. Easy to do with journal (log attributes with each message), impossible with "/var/log/messages".

You mean a CLI-UI?

Yeah, it's got a really handy CLI interface, called journalctl.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#84

Post by brokenparser »

astrodust wrote: post #77
brokenparser wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user, I can't tell what service is started when by which config file and where it should go. multi-user.target.wants? default.target.wants? Why are there windows-style .ini files and why are they all symlinks to /usr? Is it forbidden to make changes now? Really, RedHat? It just baffles me whenever I look at it.

What else would you wish for? A registry that can get randomly corrupted, complete with nonsensical keys? It's baffling, but there's reasoning. systemd is actually pretty slick at the core. A lot of the complexity comes from how flexible it is.

What else would you wish for? A registry that can get randomly corrupted, complete with nonsensical keys?

That makes no sense. We had a perfectly working init called System V init. That's an alternative here, you may be looking at the wrong operating system.

A lot of the complexity comes from how flexible it is.

I think the complexity comes from trying to do too much at once. It's an init, but also cron. It's still an init, but also inetd. But it is still init, yet also acpid. Although it is in fact, still init, it's also atd.

And all of its functionality is available as a DBUS API. The only users are developers writing programs, not anyone banging their keyboards at the commandline prompt. That flies into the face of everything that made GNU/Linux great. Dbus is the death of GNU as we know it. The *sh oneliner that uses pipes and plain works is much better than the far more efficient C (or programming language du jour) program, even if it's only 10 lines of code.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#85

Post by rlpb »

rwmj wrote: post #27
brokenparser wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nice, but can you "yum install upstart"?

No. Why would you want to? Upstart is inferior to systemd in every way and if Fedora supported both then it would have to test every package that contained a daemon twice.

> No. Why would you want to? Upstart is inferior to systemd in every way...

This is heavily disputed[1]. Please do not misrepresent your opinion as fact.

[1] Example: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem

Re: Fedora 20 released

#86

Post by ibotty »

Sanddancer wrote: post #81
dignan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

systemd itself provides the functionality to run commands at points during the lifecycle of a service[1]. As for the people in mixed environments, you can forward journald to syslog [2]. [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.serv... [2] http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/journald.con...

That's a tiny sliver of what you can do with syslog piping. For example, fail2ban works by piping the contents of the auth stream of syslog -- usually also put into auth.log -- into a script that monitors for bruteforce attempts. This kind of reactivity is a lot harder on journald configurations.

ehm. no. it can just stream the output of `journalctl -f`.

it can filter even better than before, because fail2ban usually does not care about everything in `auth.log`. i guess i don't see the problem.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#87

Post by adrianlmm »

voltagex_ wrote: post #80
adrianlmm wrote: post #66

Quick question: Anyone has succeeded dual botting Fedora 20 with Windows 8.1 in a UEFI system with secure boot? When I tried the beta it made Windows 8.1 unbootable.

Are you sure it didn't just replace the UEFI default boot entry? You should still be able to boot Windows after getting into GRUB, but if it messed up your EFI partition, that's a bug.

That's what it did, it messed with my EFI partition, so, that's why Im askin if someone has succeded with the latest reléase.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#88

Post by astrodust »

brokenparser wrote: post #84
astrodust wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else would you wish for? A registry that can get randomly corrupted, complete with nonsensical keys? It's baffling, but there's reasoning. systemd is actually pretty slick at the core. A lot of the complexity comes from how flexible it is.

What else would you wish for? A registry that can get randomly corrupted, complete with nonsensical keys? That makes no sense. We had a perfectly working init called System V init. That's an alternative here, you may be looking at the wrong operating system. A lot of the complexity comes from how flexible it is. I think the complexity comes from trying to do too much at once. It's an init, but also cron. It's still a…

System V init was decent enough for the time, but today it's relatively garbage compared to the alternatives.

Services die? Oh well, I guess they'll just stay dead. At least systemd has a wrapper that restarts them.

Also the "write a shell script with magical comments in it and lots of low-level bash" is not an elegant solution to any problem.

Fedora's been pretty good about supporting legacy sysvinit style scripts and there will always be a way to use them.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#89

Post by bkor »

Sanddancer wrote: post #81
dignan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

systemd itself provides the functionality to run commands at points during the lifecycle of a service[1]. As for the people in mixed environments, you can forward journald to syslog [2]. [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.serv... [2] http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/journald.con...

That's a tiny sliver of what you can do with syslog piping. For example, fail2ban works by piping the contents of the auth stream of syslog -- usually also put into auth.log -- into a script that monitors for bruteforce attempts. This kind of reactivity is a lot harder on journald configurations.

There have been various tools which have done this. And a lot had huge security bugs. Despite what you claim, this is also easily doable with journal plus similar solutions are available for journal.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#90

Post by bkor »

brokenparser wrote: post #74
bkor wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just grasping at straws.

Not really, I just prefer the Unix philosophy of doing one thing and doing it well. I hated upstart when it was introduced too, it broke stuff so I had to replace it with the unsupported (but fully functional) sysvinit every time. I still don't like the fact that it obsoleted /etc/inittab and that it has both old fashioned /etc/init.d and a /etc/init, because I have to look in 2 places to find a config or script. But…

Right, so Bash is Unix right? Bash does tcp connections. Oops!

Anyway, blindly following some theory is a bit strange. Systemd is several different components. Maybe you're heard of coreutils, kind of important on any Linux system. It doesn't do just one thing. I guess you think coreutils should be removed as well?

Anyway, no clue what GNOME has to do with systemd. As said: seems you're grasping at straws. Haters gonna hate :P

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