NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses" • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#81

Post by neilk » Mon, Dec 16, 2013, 5:57 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #45

pstuart wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What moral ground does the United States have for directly invading the personal communications of the leaders of its allies? Ostensibly this is all about protecting the itself from danger. What is the threat posed by, say, Germany?

I'm not saying is a good thing, but that's a policy decision on what the NSA's mission should be . "whistleblowing" that it's happening doesn't really change anything.

How can you say it changes nothing, when Snowden's actions clearly are changing things?

You may argue that we already knew what the NSA was doing, but specifics matter. If I have a key to your house (for emergencies), you know that in theory, I could be there every minute of the day when you aren't. But you assume that I'm not doing this. The specific knowledge that I was there, and ate the last piece of chocolate cake, changes everything.

While these agencies are nominally accountable to Congress, and thus their mission is "approved", in practice, it seems they are not. Snowden's whistleblowing is a step in the direction of accountability.

Also, don't think like a hacker, think like a politician. Having the information isn't a simple boolean state. There's a difference between "the information is available" and "everybody knows, and it's top of mind". Or "people have vague worries that X and Y might happen" and "X and Y is happening and it's on a grander scale than you could have conceived".

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#82

Post by nitrogen » Mon, Dec 16, 2013, 5:58 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #34

Theodores wrote: post #6

Snowden differs from many of the whistleblower ilk in that there is nothing to dislike about his character (yet). The media have not dished any dirt, none of his friends/family/ex-lovers have came forward with anything untoward about him and he hasn't shown any signs of being deluded. Even if you try your hardest to 'believe', a lot of whistleblowers have been deluded one way or another. They can be overly indoctrina…

I think the fact that he leaked a lot of details about NSA surveillance of foreign governments diminishes his moral high ground. That is the stated mission of the NSA and while the details are highly classified, everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy. Embedding himself in the NSA specifically to find the details regarding these activities and release them looks more li…

Here's an idea: let's hold a worldwide vote on NSA spying, in the true spirit of democracy. 300mil in favor, 6.7bil against.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#83

Post by Volscio » Mon, Dec 16, 2013, 6:01 PM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #14

Theodores wrote: post #6

Snowden differs from many of the whistleblower ilk in that there is nothing to dislike about his character (yet). The media have not dished any dirt, none of his friends/family/ex-lovers have came forward with anything untoward about him and he hasn't shown any signs of being deluded. Even if you try your hardest to 'believe', a lot of whistleblowers have been deluded one way or another. They can be overly indoctrina…

The idea that the character of the whistleblowers themselves has anything to do with the quality or impact of the information they leak is a propaganda trick enforced by the media-- a leak with a face can be discredited if the face can be discredited, and in the 21st century, everyone has skeletons in the closet. Additionally, if your aim is to obscure, it's far easier to focus on the flaws of the person behind the l…

Character matters tremendously for quality or impact of information they leak. It affects the degree to which you might suspect that there is even more information being hidden, who stands to benefit or suffer from leaks, and who the power players are. This calculus doesn't change whether you're a cyber-libertarian, damage control for the govt, foreign govts, whatever. You want to ascertain the degree to which this is going to continue to be a problem for different parties.

Furthermore to assume that studying someone's character as part of investigation (both public and NSA-internal) is just mere propaganda and media smoke and mirrors seems to dismiss more mundane notions as a) curiosity about the leaker and the story, b) routine counter-intel procedure, and c) journalists having stuff to write about.

In short, you are giving far too much credit to the idea that the public is stupid and easily distracted. Come on, we all know the score here.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#84

Post by fit2rule » Mon, Dec 16, 2013, 6:09 PM UTC

soulrain wrote: post #77

fit2rule wrote: post #23

If there is one thing that we should all be taking away from the Snowden episode, it is the fact that all human activities are utterly arbitrary. We decide to live in a free society, and then we do the things necessary to live in that society as we have defined it should be. The definition keeps changing. One minute, its just not a free society unless you can keep slaves, the next minute its not a free society unless…

This is true but you have to admit over time the means of oppression have become more nuanced and complicated. Few people realize that most companies are little more than intellectual property, a network to collaborate on expand said IP and the corp's ability to secure information. Large corps and govt's not only understand this, they are defined by it, thus the need for whistle blowers more now than ever as the foot…

Education always will be, and currently is, the tip of the spear. If you can deem to educate someone, you can deem to educate another. Once you gain a mass, education becomes lesser than the whole. This is why: we humans constantly need new means by which we can enlighten ourselves. Within a generation, todays enlightenment becomes de rigeur, de jour, de jure. This is the nature of the trap we find ourselves; escaping it requires one abandon the dialectic of our masters, and embrace the constant new.

For as long as we have hackers, we are safe.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#85

Post by sliverstorm » Mon, Dec 16, 2013, 6:10 PM UTC

rpenm wrote: post #60

lukev wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are my ideals - I am a pacifist, I'd much prefer that we wound down this (and most other) military activity. I was simply pointing out how Snowden's actions reflect on his character. Whistleblowing: Revealing that an entity is doing things it should not be doing so the correct oversight can be put in place. Sabatoge: Deliberately destroying the capabilities of an organization by means of deception and rule-brea…

The latter often describes civil disobedience.

Sabotage and civil disobedience don't really overlap.

Sabotage: I will secretly undermine your operations and try not to get caught. My sabotage is operational- it is most effective when undiscovered.

Civil disobedience: I will publicly defy your rules with every intention of being apprehended. My defiance is political- it achieves nothing by itself, and must be public.

Yes, both involve breaking rules, but that is where the similarities end.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#86

Post by JonSkeptic » Mon, Dec 16, 2013, 6:11 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #73

lukev wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fact that he leaked a lot of details about NSA surveillance of foreign governments diminishes his moral high ground. That is the stated mission of the NSA and while the details are highly classified, everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy. Embedding himself in the NSA specifically to find the details regarding these activities and release them looks more li…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Snowden has not published anything really critical about NSA surveillance on China, Russia, Iran, etc. His risk/reward calculation seems to be on line with mine. Of course his leaks do some damage to U.S. foreign policy, but that's acceptable collateral damage. His leaks help to shape the power balance between government and citizens in liberal democracies.

>Correct me if I'm wrong

You are and it would take a lot to correct that statement. I'd start at the timeline: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/multimedia/timeline-ed...

Most of what Snowden revealed did not relate to domestic spying overreach. Hell, he wasn't even in China for a week before he revealed NSA programs that spy on the Chinese. Snowden has done more damage to his cause than the government ever could, and it's not for lack of trying.

His credibility as a whistleblower has been fatally harmed by choosing to leave the country: not only did he leave, but he went to China and then to Russia, taking an encrypted hardrive with him! You'd have to be really stupid to think the Chinese and Russians have not copied every single piece of information he had, even the information that The Guardian has decided not publish yet because of the damage it could cause.

At this point, he is a spy from every angle you look at it. Between revealing foreign collection activities, giving China and Russia loads of classified information, and fleeing from the U.S. to China and then Russia, there's no case to be made for him being a whistleblower.

He blew the whistle on a few domestic programs and that's a very good thing. But that is such a small part of everything that Snowden did. Still, in total disregard of the facts, some will consider him a whistleblower and a hero.

He is every bit as much of a hero as Edward Lee Howard and I have little doubt he will meet the same fate.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#87

Post by rev_null » Mon, Dec 16, 2013, 6:12 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #32

The fact that the NSA needed help to setup Sharepoint fills me with confidence that they have no idea what they're doing. I'm guessing the password to the call log metadata is on a post-it note somewhere.

I have to laugh at the "genius among geniuses" quote. How come all of the NSA geniuses were so dependent on a contractor to keep everything running? Why did none of those geniuses see the danger in employing a person with an anti-NSA hoodie who was constantly questioning the legality of spying?

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#88

Post by rayiner » Mon, Dec 16, 2013, 6:16 PM UTC

jeswin wrote: post #50

lukev wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fact that he leaked a lot of details about NSA surveillance of foreign governments diminishes his moral high ground. That is the stated mission of the NSA and while the details are highly classified, everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy. Embedding himself in the NSA specifically to find the details regarding these activities and release them looks more li…

I'm all for whistleblowing on how the NSA is abusing its powers to spy on US citizens, and I think it's extremely important that he did so. I really wish he'd constrained himself to that. I can't believe you're saying this. Is your judgement so clouded by patriotism that you somehow think other people have no right to their privacy? Let me explain the consequences of what you are suggesting here, apart from the obvio…

> Is your judgement so clouded by patriotism that you somehow think other people have no right to their privacy?

It's not a matter of patriotism, it's a matter of self-preservation. We acknowledge that other people in our own society have rights because we also understand that they have reciprocal obligations. If there is conflict, we can resort to legal process to mediate the conflict and preserve everyone's rights. This is possible because we are all party to the same social contract.

But people outside our society do not have any obligation to us. They are not party to our social contract. We in America cannot legislate how say the Chinese go about their business, even when those activities might have an impact on us (e.g. air pollution in California). That is why we don't acknowledge that they have rights identical with those of people in our own society.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#89

Post by jessaustin » Mon, Dec 16, 2013, 6:16 PM UTC

timdiggerm wrote: post #71

rpenm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A policy decision most Americans normally have no say in. It would never have come to public debate before the revelations.

Unfortunately that's a neccessity of the nature of these policies. Are you saying the US should have nothing that isn't publically known?

I'd like to suggest that! We wouldn't have done 90% of the evil, pointless, counterproductive bullshit we've done since WWII, if all aspects of that bullshit had been public. And, not a single genuinely good thing we've done would have been prevented.

Details of military battles could be kept secret during the battles and for a couple of years afterward, and sure we should keep demographic data about private people restricted to only those agencies that legitimately need that data, but those are the only exceptions that come to mind.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#90

Post by simoncion » Mon, Dec 16, 2013, 6:17 PM UTC

jonknee wrote: post #39

Edmond wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people are labeled geniuses, independent evidence is important, especially when they've become a cause célèbre. Geniuses generally have a body of work to stand on, not just a friend/family/colleague opinion.

I would say being a self-taught computer expert who out-smarted the most technically advanced intelligence agency in the history of the world at their own game would lend itself to being a body of work. He also outmaneuvered the State Department and as a lone actor has been able to thumb his nose at the most powerful people in the world while his data has been front page news in dozens of countries around the world f…

> ...out-smarted the most technically advanced intelligence agency in the history of the world at their own game...

The lifting of sensitive NSA documents smells to me of gross incompetence. It troubles me that this hasn't gotten more discussion.

Snowden was working for Booz Allen Hamilton in Hawaii. While working for this government contractor, he managed to copy a great many secrets that were probably supposed to be very inaccessible to him.

1) Why does the NSA outsource IT work (and, more critically, the storage of extremely sensitive information) to a third party? (Or do I misunderstand BAH's role in the matter?)

2) One of the NSA's missions is to provide computer security to USGov and the nation as a whole. How good at that job could they possibly be if they can't keep their secrets from insiders who wish to obtain them?

3) Snowden has not been outed as black, white, or grey-hat hacker. It has been claimed that Snowden asked other co-workers with greater access for their credentials and used those to copy sensitive data. Either that claim is true, or BAH seriously fucked up their SELinux permissions and gave sysadmins read access to everything. Either way, the documents were likely not obtained through technical wizardry, but were likely acquired through exploitation of human incompetence. Snowden may be a very skilled individual, but it seems very likely that his skills had nothing to do with the acquisition of that document cache.