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Scientists discover second code hiding in DNA

washington.edu

81–90 of 108 posts

Re: Scientists discover second code hiding in DNA

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sort of a misunderstanding of evolution. It's not building to the most efficient or the greatest form of anything. It's spontaneous change that may or may not survive with no real reference to "the best."

This also seems to misunderstand evolution. You can think of evolution as a hill climbing optimization algorithm, with a complicated and constantly changing fitness metric. While it is true that any given change is random, and even 'good' changes still only succeed with some probability, over a long time period we see a series of incremental improvements. If there is an opportunity to increase efficiency it is likely…

No, he got it exactly right. Evolution is not an algorithm, it doesn't optimize anything, changes are not improvements, it doesn't seek opportunities to improve efficiency.

Re: Scientists discover second code hiding in DNA

#82
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your advice sounds a bit pretentious to me. Here I was under the mistaken impression that people should be themselves. (Downvoters in three, two, one...) RokStdy, don't be discouraged. You've done nothing wrong.

> Your advice sounds a bit pretentious to me. Here I was under the mistaken impression that people should be themselves. No, no they shouldn't. Not if that means "take whatever action they feel like." One should take purposeful actions which serve to help their fellow HN'er and maintain the tremendously useful tool that this website has become. They should refrain from actions which decrease the signal to noise, or o…

I hope that one day you can grow enough as a person to realize that authenticity is an important trait. I don't think I've very often heard "no, no you shouldn't" as a direct response to a claim that one should avoid being something you are not.

Re: Scientists discover second code hiding in DNA

#83
post #68
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I figured I might get downvoted, but when I read the headline the konami code stuck in my head and I couldn't resist. It made me laugh, and I thought it might make others laugh. Which to me has (a little) value. But now, you are pot and I am kettle (or vice versa). Your comment adds no value or, I'd argue less value, because at least I was trying to be funny.

Instead of having a debate between the pot and kettle, perhaps you'd listen to the stove? http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html "The most dangerous form of stupid comment is not the long but mistaken argument, but the dumb joke. [...] Bad comments are like kudzu: they take over rapidly. Comments have much more effect on new comments than submissions have on new submissions. If someone submits a lame article, the…

Right, because what constitutes a "dumb joke" can be universally agreed upon.

Re: Scientists discover second code hiding in DNA

#84
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your advice sounds a bit pretentious to me. Here I was under the mistaken impression that people should be themselves. No, no they shouldn't. Not if that means "take whatever action they feel like." One should take purposeful actions which serve to help their fellow HN'er and maintain the tremendously useful tool that this website has become. They should refrain from actions which decrease the signal to noise, or o…

I hope that one day you can grow enough as a person to realize that authenticity is an important trait. I don't think I've very often heard "no, no you shouldn't" as a direct response to a claim that one should avoid being something you are not.

Authenticity doesn't mean broadcasting every little thought that enters your head.

Re: Scientists discover second code hiding in DNA

#85

Funny how discoveries like this don't surprise me at all anymore. After embracing concepts such as fractal geometry, recursion and the demand for efficiency in nature, it makes sense that in nature everything has evolved in a way in which every layer is a part of the next layer above it (quarks -> electrons, protons -> elements -> compounds -> amino acids -> proteins -> information -> abstract information -> ..., or…

> I think musicians, for example, are better at math because at the heart of music and at the heart of math

Is this true? My personal anecdotal evidence suggests the opposite -- do you have any real research to back this up?

Re: Scientists discover second code hiding in DNA

#86
I am confused. I have absolutely zero biology background so please, bear with me.

So genes only code how to make proteins? That's IT? What about all the other stuff like what you look like, what diseases you may or may not get, some special functions of your body, your biological strengths and weaknesses, etc etc. Or defining protein generation actually defines all of that? (that would be so fascinating).

And 90% of the DNA is labeled as "non-coding?" ?!?!? Seriously? well it can't be "junk" can it? Or maybe its like a long bitcoin chain with only the latest commit relevant....

Re: Scientists discover second code hiding in DNA

#87
post #42
post #35

I looked over the paper pretty quickly, but on a quick read it looks really nice. The data are really impressive, and they seemed to have pulled out really interesting trends for how transcription factors are affecting coding sequence. Furthermore, they map how variants found across the various cell lines they used (81!) to show that these variants actually are causal for transcription factor binding changes. For tho…

So I admit I haven't skimmed the paper yet. Is it as comprehensive a map of DNA-encoded transcription factors as can be had? I ask because I can understand the way DNA codes for proteins–as a software-head–but the article definitely gets me with this "second language" and I want to think more about how the overlapping meanings might have developed (and how that might be apply to digital code). Other than "start," "st…

I'll try to give you a description of what transcription factors do and what the importance of Stamatoyannopoulos finding is. I hope it doesn't sound too weird.

Just noticed, how long my "brief" description is, so here is a TL;DR: Comparing cells to computer programs: A program figures out by itself which functions to call based on the byte sequence of the function in memory and changes these preferences based on the environment its running in.

As you know, the DNA in our cells encodes the blueprint for all proteins that exist in the human body. I'm trying to compare this to string encoding, but might be completely wrong, because string encoding is more difficult to me than DNA encoding ;) The DNA is our hard drive. This hard drive holds the information for all proteins. A protein will be a string. Our alphabet is made out of 21 characters, they are called amino acids. Each character (amino acid) is encoded as a 3bit sequence on the DNA, the so called codon. Opposite to the binary system, we have a base4 system, meaning each bit can have 4 different states (A,T,C,G), the nucleic acids. So, given a byte sequence from the hard drive (gene on the DNA), we always look at codons (three bits) and can then translate those codons into amino acids. ATG translates to Methionine, GGA translates to Glycine etc.... Having 4^3 (64) different codons but only 21 amino acids, some amino acids can be represented by several different codons. On top of that, some codons have a special meaning, such as "\n". Those special codons are called "stop codon", because it marks the end of a protein and the program stops decoding from this point on. In addition, there is also a "start codon" that marks the begin of a string.

When a cell wants to make a certain protein, it copies the byte-sequence from the DNA and translates it into the actual amino acid sequence and as such forms proteins (prints a string in our example).

The problem we're now facing is that every cell in your body (with a few exceptions, of course) has the exact same DNA sequence. But still, nature is able to somehow make different celltypes, such as a skin cell, blood cell, neuron, you get the point. The way how cells "know" which proteins to make is that the hard drive doesn't only hold encoded strings but also some byte sequences in between that don't encode any strings. These sequences are called regulatory sequences. These sequences attract so called transcription factors. Transcription factors are proteins that you could understand as a pointer. They will point to some genes, but not to others and thus instruct the cell which byte sequences should be translated into strings.

These regulatory sequences can not only attract transcription factors, but also suppressive factors. Those are proteins that prevent transcription factors from binding and thus ensure that certain proteins are not made.

There are hundreds of different transcription factors and repressors encoded on the DNA, but only a handful exist as protein in each given cell and they define the difference between celltypes. They come and go as the cell's environment changes as well.

So, going back to our string analogy, say you have saved thousands of strings on your harddrive but only want to show a subset of those to the user (eg language selection). You start your program by passing some information about which strings to choose. The same happens here as well, only that the information which strings to chose is somehow intrinsic but still different between celltypes. And on top of that you not only have distinct languages, but the languages overlap and language A uses string 1,2,3; language B uses string 2,5,6; and language C uses string 1,2,6 etc. Because of this complexity it is very difficult to understand how the cell "knows" which proteins are right.

Stamatoyannopoulos now for the first time proved that even though two different codons encode the same amino acids they might attract different transcription factors.

To get an understanding of the importance of this finding, imagine having a character encoding, such as DNA, where two different byte sequences encode the exact same string. Now imagine having a program that automatically chooses which strings to display based on which byte sequences encode certain characters.

And now, image that the DNA doesn't only encode strings, but also functions and closures, pointers, variables etc. So each time a part of the DNA is translated, the state of the program changes. Nature is vey complex and we're just at the beginning of understanding the code.

We have methods where we can out-comment some part of the DNA and see how the program changes (mutations). In addition, we recently learned how to see which part of the DNA is being used in certain cells. And in this paper, they refined this method by actually looking at all pointers in a cell and figuring out which part of the DNA they pointed at. And they did this for 81 different cell types to find networks that act together in certain settings.

Re: Scientists discover second code hiding in DNA

#89
post #21

I am not a biologist, but this discovery seems ground-braking to me. What strikes me as an interesting question (I hope someone of you can answer) is: How long will it be, before physicians/gene specialists/biologists/etc. will use the new way of DNA interpretation in cases for regular people? How long before this discovery can be used in mainstream medicine? My (uneducated) guess is: there has to be a huge reevaluat…

>How long before this discovery can be used in mainstream medicine? Almost immediately. While it won't have therapeutic applications for some time, the first benefit will be helping scientists better understand the cause of certain diseases. >ground-braking That's like aerobraking, right? ;)

Oooops. :>

It should've been groundbreaking*.

Well, the "therapeutic applications" were kind of what I meant. I hope "some time" is not more than 5 years.

Re: Scientists discover second code hiding in DNA

#90
post #85

Funny how discoveries like this don't surprise me at all anymore. After embracing concepts such as fractal geometry, recursion and the demand for efficiency in nature, it makes sense that in nature everything has evolved in a way in which every layer is a part of the next layer above it (quarks -> electrons, protons -> elements -> compounds -> amino acids -> proteins -> information -> abstract information -> ..., or…

> I think musicians, for example, are better at math because at the heart of music and at the heart of math Is this true? My personal anecdotal evidence suggests the opposite -- do you have any real research to back this up?

My wife says "yeah, musicians are great at maths, they can count to 4"
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