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NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

washingtonpost.com

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Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#81

Post by lhc- »

marvin wrote: post #65
angersock wrote: post #3

From the article: NSA Director Keith Alexander disclosed in Senate testimony in October that the NSA had run a pilot project in 2010 and 2011 to collect “samples” of U.S. cellphone location data. The data collected were never available for intelligence analysis purposes, and the project was discontinued because it had no “operational value,” he said. Alexander allowed that a broader collection of such data “may be so…

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

While in school for Computer Engineering (2002-2007 or so), I actually had two ethics classes, one specifically for Engineering and one for Information ethics. I dont know how standard that is, but all the engineering disciplines had to take the Engineering one and computer scienc-y students had to take Info ethics.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#82

Post by pit »

swalsh wrote: post #4

Meta topic, but it seems kind of rude to link to the print page. The washington post is already a very readable site, If i don't want ads, i'll use adblock.

I humbly disagree. I was waiting for the site to "finish loading", and when I realized that it had, I was delighted.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#83

Post by dmunoz »

easy_rider wrote: post #72
theg2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treadstone is from The Bourne Identity isn't it?

Yeah. Enemy of the state is the one where one of the Gov. hackers wears computer/shooting glasses and looks like Dexter Holland from The Offspring. http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Enemy-of-the-S...

Do those glasses have no benefit? They're marketed to gamers as reducing eye strain [0]. I step away from the monitor often enough that I don't get overly bothered by it, even if I'm programming for an extended period of time. I do also run f.lux as well, though.

[0] http://www.gunnars.com/

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#84

Post by latj »

qq66 wrote: post #71
marvin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

Prism may have been built by people holding their noses for the paycheck, but it could also have been built by people who genuinely believe that its social benefits outweigh its costs. Even if only 0.1% of software professionals believe this, it's enough to staff the project.

I agree. Just look at who Palantir hires. I imagine its a pretty small number of nose-holders and more often people who think they are doing good and people who think spying is a necessary evil so lets put fine grained controls on it.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#85

Post by CWuestefeld »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #54
diminoten wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA doesn't run operations, so they didn't do either of these things either. It's a big government.

Yeah, and the soldiers don't make the orders, the generals don't make the politics, the politicians just try to keep the military industrial complex fat and snugly and the citizens happy, the citizens just crave security because that's what the media says is what citizens crave while the military industrial complex just seeks profit because it's required to by stockholders and everyone else involved, who are just try…

So why is that in polite company, even those that are opposed to our various wars are obliged to toe the line, "we support our troops"?

Even in 21st century America, we continue to fool ourselves, thinking that somehow soldiers can be noble, heroes even, all the while being engaged something that is immoral.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#86

Post by icelancer »

angersock wrote: post #5
swalsh wrote: post #4

Meta topic, but it seems kind of rude to link to the print page. The washington post is already a very readable site, If i don't want ads, i'll use adblock.

http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ perhaps?

I love the fact that it uses Google Analytics.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#87

Post by dredmorbius »

angersock wrote: post #3

From the article: NSA Director Keith Alexander disclosed in Senate testimony in October that the NSA had run a pilot project in 2010 and 2011 to collect “samples” of U.S. cellphone location data. The data collected were never available for intelligence analysis purposes, and the project was discontinued because it had no “operational value,” he said. Alexander allowed that a broader collection of such data “may be so…

And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom.

Thank you. I was going to make the same point, you've done it well.

Moreover: this is why the Snowden, PRISM, NSA/FBI, surveillance, privacy, and other stories matter on HN.

Many of those working for startups are contributing directly (and occasionally indirectly) to the datastreams which are being harvested. I've never felt comfortable with Facebook and the ethics of its leadership, and I've been increasingly concerned about Google (I consider it to have lost rather than sold its soul). Both are far too actively carrying the NSA's water (as I've pointedly told Google multiple times).

How to answer the challenge ... I really don't know, I'm at a loss here.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#88

Post by eliasmacpherson »

swalkergibson wrote: post #29

I am now numb to these revelations, as I suspect are most of the technology community. The only thing that will make the rest of the general populace wake up is if someone on TV says they are vehemently opposed to it. Someone who has trotted out the, "I have nothing to hide, so I am not worried." I believe the only way this will happen is if Edward Snowden specifically targeted one of those people and created a file…

I think it's up to you to get people within your own sphere of influence to care, rather than shift that duty to someone else.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#89

Post by runn1ng »

marvin wrote: post #65
angersock wrote: post #3

From the article: NSA Director Keith Alexander disclosed in Senate testimony in October that the NSA had run a pilot project in 2010 and 2011 to collect “samples” of U.S. cellphone location data. The data collected were never available for intelligence analysis purposes, and the project was discontinued because it had no “operational value,” he said. Alexander allowed that a broader collection of such data “may be so…

> And that, folks, is why we as engineers and hackers have a moral duty to be very selective in the types of work we take on and for whom. Computer yechnology work is still a wild west. Other fields which have similar ethical considerations - medicine, chemistry, engineering - have ethics courses which make it clear to the graduates that their professional decisions have consequences. There is no such standard for co…

It's way more ambiguous.

PRISM people thought they were doing right. All NSA - based on all the official and unofficial responses - think they are doing right. That they help building a safer America. That they have to sacrifice privacy for safety. Etc, etc.

I don't think NSA people are evil. They believe that the things they do are for good.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#90

Post by Amadou »

daveid wrote: post #30
tokipin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think if this kind of thing is inevitable, then it should be the case that this kind of information should be completely public to all, not just to governments. similar to what David Brin argues ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transparent_Society )

I understand that if this information is available solely to government agents, a rouge one can potentially do anything they want with it; but if it is available to all, does that not make me even more vulnerable because now anyone who doesn't like me can get a clear overview of my daily routes, or my address, etc?

I completely agree. I am really tired of that Brin story being constantly cited by people without thinking through the consequences - of which there are many.

One of the biggest is the destruction of creativity. When people know that their actions are under constant surveillance it creates an enormous cognitive load. They have to constantly evaluate everything they do as to how it might appear to a critical observer. The end result is that people will simply stop doing anything that might have a social risk associated with it.

A panopticon society will be a dull, stagnant and repressed society. Think of every little backwards town where everybody knows everybody's business and anyone who steps out of line is ostracized. That is what our entire society will turn into with total surveillance.

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