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Typhoon Haiyan kills 10,000 in Philippines

theguardian.com

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Re: Typhoon Haiyan kills 10,000 in Philippines

#81

Post by HarryHirsch »

mistermann wrote: post #74
rdl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like there are two separate things needed -- overall increase in wealth creation, and better survivability of structures (or at least shelters) at the current price points (or maybe in the price points somewhat above the current point.) (I was looking at being in Cebu or Leyte for diving last week, but my ear was slightly sore so I went to Bangkok first instead. Pretty happy about that.)

> It seems like there are two separate things needed -- overall increase in wealth creation, and better survivability of structures (or at least shelters) I've always had this theory that one at least partial explanation for the differing economic states of different cultures is ability to properly assess risks and prepare for them accordingly. If every years a typhoon is going to come along and wipe out % of your in…

If every years a typhoon is going to come along and wipe out % of your infrastructure putting the affected regions of the country back to square one yet again, coming up with a workable solution to that should be a super high priority.

This is correct. Yet Miami is hit by a hurricane every seven years on average, and they don't manage to move the power lines underground, instead preferring to hang the wire above ground again every time it's blown down, and charging the population for the privilege of having electric power. They also rebuilt New Orleans in areas where they shouldn't, and still cannot put proper sea defenses in where they ought to.

But when Bangladesh, then East Pakistan, was hit in 1970 by the great 1970 cyclone, the incident that triggered Independence, they managed to put in concrete storm shelters. These things helped to save many lives in the subsequent years.

Guys, anyone at home? Civil defense is a political problem, it seems.

Re: Typhoon Haiyan kills 10,000 in Philippines

#82

Post by rdl »

larrys wrote: post #76
rdl wrote: post #2

I still don't get why the US Navy hasn't put an LHD or equivalent amphibious group into the relief effort -- it would be a great humanitarian thing, plus a show of strength for one of our key Pacific allies after the "pivot to Asia" -- a pretty clear implication that if we can put a battalion ashore to help hours after a hurricane, we can do similar things during a conflict. Extra points due to the huge number of USN…

"it would be a great humanitarian thing, plus a show of strength for one of our key Pacific allies" Are you suggesting that there is excess money for something like this in the Navy budget? There are an unlimited number of things that we could do to make the world better and we can't do all of them. Like in business you have to undertake a cost/benefit analysis and see if it makes sense then to do or not. Not to ment…

We do stupid exercises all the time which use more money than altering a patrol to go to the region and offloading water/food/fuel. The funding could be moved from usaid as well.

In general we should basically do anything do anything less than billions to win over Vietnam, PI, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, and show our alliance with SK, Japan, and Taiwan, and build friendship with China. A billion invested in that probably is 10b in expected savings in avoiding future war.

Re: Typhoon Haiyan kills 10,000 in Philippines

#83

Post by mistermann »

TylerE wrote: post #67
atmosx wrote: post #41

Cheap, easy-to-assemble, open source technologies that will help communities to protect themselves will really change the world :-(

Unless you can open source a few billion cubic meters of concrete it would have done fuck all.

Assuming concrete is the only solution to the problem.

Re: Typhoon Haiyan kills 10,000 in Philippines

#85

Post by mrj »

rdl wrote: post #2

I still don't get why the US Navy hasn't put an LHD or equivalent amphibious group into the relief effort -- it would be a great humanitarian thing, plus a show of strength for one of our key Pacific allies after the "pivot to Asia" -- a pretty clear implication that if we can put a battalion ashore to help hours after a hurricane, we can do similar things during a conflict. Extra points due to the huge number of USN…

The link says the Marines are deploying from Okinawa.

Re: Typhoon Haiyan kills 10,000 in Philippines

#86

Post by freehunter »

adolfojp wrote: post #68
yitchelle wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agreed. The US (including the rest of the First world countries) has the means and the ability to do so much in the name of humanitarian efforts. It is sad to see these types of disasters fall by the wayside. Anyone still remember Puerto Rico?

>Anyone still remember Puerto Rico? As a Puerto Rican in a thread about natural disasters I don't know what you're talking about.

Maybe he's remembering the 1918 earthquake? I don't know why the US would fail to help Puerto Rico, it's a US territory.

Re: Typhoon Haiyan kills 10,000 in Philippines

#87

Post by xradionut »

yitchelle wrote: post #7
ck2 wrote: post #3

US "news" is finally starting to cover this. I mean 10K, that is just beyond devastating, it should be front page news for months. We lost 1800 with Katrina.

Totally agreed. The US (including the rest of the First world countries) has the means and the ability to do so much in the name of humanitarian efforts. It is sad to see these types of disasters fall by the wayside. Anyone still remember Puerto Rico?

We do send what we can. Between government, charities and private donations, there's aid coming from the US.

We could send more, but a majority of the population is in debt or living check to check. (You could appeal to the folks that live in 27,000 sq ft houses and spend $300k annually on their electric bills, but they are busy doing more important things.)

Re: Typhoon Haiyan kills 10,000 in Philippines

#88

Post by mistermann »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #81
mistermann wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like there are two separate things needed -- overall increase in wealth creation, and better survivability of structures (or at least shelters) I've always had this theory that one at least partial explanation for the differing economic states of different cultures is ability to properly assess risks and prepare for them accordingly. If every years a typhoon is going to come along and wipe out % of your in…

If every years a typhoon is going to come along and wipe out % of your infrastructure putting the affected regions of the country back to square one yet again, coming up with a workable solution to that should be a super high priority. This is correct. Yet Miami is hit by a hurricane every seven years on average, and they don't manage to move the power lines underground, instead preferring to hang the wire above grou…

I'd have to look at the cost comparison of overhead vs underground power lines, keeping in mind the presumably extreme levels of standards one would have to meet, but I would not be surprised at all if the decision was 100% based on right out in the open corruption. This is one of the problems we have over here that holds us back, and it is getting increasingly worse imho.

Another problem for poor nations is the initial capital cost complicating the decision of building cheap and fragile vs expensive and resilient. Sometimes they simply don't have the money. Sometimes they do but the genuine uncertainty of another typhoon of this magnitude makes it too difficult to make the commitment. Other times they're perhaps not even thinking in this way at all.

Re: Typhoon Haiyan kills 10,000 in Philippines

#89

Post by massysett »

hannibal5 wrote: post #78
gexla wrote: post #5

Wow, that's an insane death toll. To put this in perspective, last year, another super typhoon, Pablo, killed close to 2000 I believe. The year before that another devastating typhoon, Sendong, killed something like 1200. The Philippines regularly gets hit with 20 typhoons each year and the typhoon season isn't over. Each of the above mentioned typhoons hit in December. This has to be among the deadliest in Philippin…

To put things into context. 1.3 million people die and 50 million people are injured in car accidents every year. Nature disasters are just side show in human life at this point.

That doesn't put things in any useful context. Each car wreck is an isolated incident. Societies are relatively well-equipped to deal with these incidents: first responders come out, injured are taken to hospital, the dead go to the morgue, where they are buried in a routine fashion. The next of kin are affected, but their lives proceed in a society which has retained its usual level of function, with employment continuing, transportation networks operating, and food supply lines functioning normally. This is all true even for the most massively awful freeway pileups that occur in dense fog.

In a disaster of this nature, supply lines are wiped out. Hospitals are gone. First responders, to the extent there are any, are overwhelmed. It's hard to get food. Sanitary systems, to the extent they existed in the first place, are gone. Communication systems are gone. This is all going to have incredible impact, even in a less-developed country. The disaster affects entire communities for several years at least. No car wreck has this sort of impact.

Side show?

Re: Typhoon Haiyan kills 10,000 in Philippines

#90

Post by nzealand »

hannibal5 wrote: post #78
gexla wrote: post #5

Wow, that's an insane death toll. To put this in perspective, last year, another super typhoon, Pablo, killed close to 2000 I believe. The year before that another devastating typhoon, Sendong, killed something like 1200. The Philippines regularly gets hit with 20 typhoons each year and the typhoon season isn't over. Each of the above mentioned typhoons hit in December. This has to be among the deadliest in Philippin…

To put things into context. 1.3 million people die and 50 million people are injured in car accidents every year. Nature disasters are just side show in human life at this point.

It sounds like their entire community and economy is devastated.

If disaster taps on your neighborhood window, I suspect you would sing a different tune.

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