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CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

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Re: CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

#81

Post by VikingCoder »

velodrome wrote: post #4

People need stop using antibiotics for everything and use it only when necessary. When Drugs Stop Working-Norway's Answer: http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205_162-6014559.html

Capitalism and herd management are competing forces.

We Westerners think we're individuals, and each of us are free to make our own decisions. We completely ignore the medical advice, and want the best treatment possible. We want to take the antibiotics. We want a biopsy of that lung nodule. We want an MRI for that persistent migraine. We want to decide whether our child receives "possibly dangerous" vaccines. Statistics be damned.

Unfortunately, with antibiotics on one end of the spectrum (we take too many), and vaccines on the other end (we don't take enough), herd management is the right answer (we should all be pretty much forced to do the medically-suggested thing), and we utterly reject that.

It's the tragedy of the immune system commons.

Re: CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

#82

Post by VikingCoder »

stingraycharles wrote: post #10
velodrome wrote: post #4

People need stop using antibiotics for everything and use it only when necessary. When Drugs Stop Working-Norway's Answer: http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205_162-6014559.html

People aren't the problem; it's the food industry that abuses antibiotics the most. When a pig gets ill, it's way cheaper to give her a dose of antibiotics instead of getting a vet.

You just (unintentionally) said that capitalism is the problem.

If people were willing to pay for antibiotic-free meat, then farmers would produce it. They would call the vet, and maybe destroy the pig rather than treat it with antibiotics.

By the way, you're naively presuming they're using antibiotics when the pig gets sick. Nope, they're using them prophylactically.

Re: CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

#83

Post by vasilipupkin »

vidarh wrote: post #72
parennoob wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to rtdsc's comment, I have also observed that people in the US are more touchy about just the fact of 'being sick' and treat minor colds like it was TB or something. My girlfriend from here after I got a cold, "Oh, are you okay? Why do you think you got sick? Stay in bed for a while and take some medicine." No, it's just a cold. Why do I think I got sick? People get them when it turns cold out. Doesn't ma…

I'm Norwegian, and worked for a US company years and years ago. Three of us went to Santa Cruz to visit the rest of the team. First morning there the local news was all up in arms about a storm. We looked out: There was a light drizzle. We walked to the office without umbrellas, in light clothes, and hardly got wet. It was well over 20 degrees celsius, and a pleasant enough 15 minute walk despite the light drizzle. W…

I am not sure your anecdote illustrates anything interesting. Perhaps a very big rain storm had been expected but didn't materialize. Plenty of Americans that I have seen wear shorts when it's really cold out here in Chicago, I am not sure I would consider this a great idea or a badge of honor

Re: CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

#84

Post by sliverstorm »

vidarh wrote: post #71
aluhut wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't ment that way. The vaccination conspiracy theorists are the opposite evil here. They are even worse. I didn't want to say that I would not give my kid antibiotics. This is bullshit. But I will change the doctor if his only solution is antibiotics. I had that situation already with my girlfriend. She is ill pretty often. She works in a kindergarden and parents tent to get rid of their sick kids by sending th…

I'm Norwegian. Norwegian doctors at least used to be extremely careful about anti-biotics. I now live in the UK, and the doctors here often prescribe anti-biotics after telling us we most likely have a viral infection. I think the main thing is to challenge them to explain why. If they can't give a coherent explanation, ask them to explain to you what they think the risks are of waiting. Most of the time when doctors…

doctors here often prescribe anti-biotics after telling us we most likely have a viral infection.

I think the main thing is to challenge them to explain why. If they can't give a coherent explanation...

I would guess the reasons are a combination of CYA and patients routinely demanding antibiotics even when they have a viral infection.

Re: CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

#85

Post by bbatchelder »

snowwrestler wrote: post #80
cantankerous wrote: post #78

Since new anti-biotic development is so critical, I don't get why the feds don't in-source it to the CDC or provide massive incentives already. This is an infuriating problem that should've been dealt with decades ago on the R&D-funding front.

As I understand it, the problem is more fundamental than that. Antibiotics were originally discovered accidentally, and a lot of subsequent antibiotics were discovered/created by investigating and extending the mechanisms of the original discoveries. We're now running out of those implications to chase down. To get the "next breakthrough" in antibiotics will require another surprise discovery, or some other fundament…

Last I heard, the next breakthrough is expected to be the exploitation of quorum sensing. Tricking the bacteria into thinking there are already more than enough of them so they at least stop reproducing.

Re: CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

#86

Post by binarycrusader »

rurounijones wrote: post #7

while post anti-biotic sucks for humans directly. What about post-antibiotic for livestock which forms our food sources. If we can no longer raise as many cattle, pigs, sheep etc. then what are the global implications.

Animals do not represent the only viable food source for humans.

The global implications are less meat in everyone's diet, which is hardly a dire outcome. The majority of humanity is likely capable of subsisting on a completely plant-based diet. (Please note I am not a Vegan or Vegetarian, I'm just pointing out what should be obvious.)

I'm reminded of Asimov's Sci-Fi books where he included the idea of "Yeast vats and algae farms [which] produced basic nutrients, which were then processed with artificial flavors into palatable food."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trantor

Re: CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

#87

Post by j_baker »

Blahah wrote: post #46
haldujai wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually you're quite mistaken. The reason no one uses phage therapy is because for it to be effective it has to be given in a cocktail, i.e. you're given 20 different phages at a time. The FDA/CDC strongly discourage cocktail usage as it promotes the development of resistance more than antibiotic abuse. MediHoney is used mainly as a wound dressing to prevent infection, not to treat current infections (maybe infectio…

That's not the only reason no-one uses phage therapy - there's also a strong cultural resistance in the west. I've worked on phage targeting various Salmonella serovars, and while you do require cocktails for the most effective treatment, but phage evolve along with the pathogen. There's no inherent limit on the availability of phage like there is with our current suite of antibiotics. With extensive sequencing-based…

but phage evolve along with the pathogen.

How do you prevent the phage from evolving to target the human cells?

Re: CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

#88

Post by jessriedel »

jacquesm wrote: post #21

Antibiotics are now so widespread in use that you can detect them in the ground water and in the oceans. http://sustainability.formas.se/en/Issues/Issue-3-November-2... http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070821153926.ht... MRSA is just one small example of what the future holds if we don't manage this carefully, we're actually exerting evolutionary pressure on the one adversary that holds a serious trump ca…

> Antibiotics are now so widespread in use that you can detect them in the ground water and in the oceans.

"Detectability" is a silly metric which tells you nothing about this issue. Molecules are really, really, ridiculously small. Most of the breaths you take contain atoms from Caesar's last gasp, but that doesn't tell you anything useful about the prevalence of Caesar.

Re: CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

#89

Post by vwinsyee »

vidarh wrote: post #72
parennoob wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to rtdsc's comment, I have also observed that people in the US are more touchy about just the fact of 'being sick' and treat minor colds like it was TB or something. My girlfriend from here after I got a cold, "Oh, are you okay? Why do you think you got sick? Stay in bed for a while and take some medicine." No, it's just a cold. Why do I think I got sick? People get them when it turns cold out. Doesn't ma…

I'm Norwegian, and worked for a US company years and years ago. Three of us went to Santa Cruz to visit the rest of the team. First morning there the local news was all up in arms about a storm. We looked out: There was a light drizzle. We walked to the office without umbrellas, in light clothes, and hardly got wet. It was well over 20 degrees celsius, and a pleasant enough 15 minute walk despite the light drizzle. W…

Eh, as an American who's visited several major US cities, I've observed a whole lot of variation in behavior during inclement weather, partly because the US is pretty big and hence pretty diverse in climate. The behavior you describe might be more common in southern California, where it doesn't rain all that often. When I was in Seattle (where it rains pretty much all the time), a lot of people didn't seem like they noticed it was raining.

Re: CDC Threat Report: ‘We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era’

#90

Post by sehugg »

jessriedel wrote: post #88
jacquesm wrote: post #21

Antibiotics are now so widespread in use that you can detect them in the ground water and in the oceans. http://sustainability.formas.se/en/Issues/Issue-3-November-2... http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070821153926.ht... MRSA is just one small example of what the future holds if we don't manage this carefully, we're actually exerting evolutionary pressure on the one adversary that holds a serious trump ca…

> Antibiotics are now so widespread in use that you can detect them in the ground water and in the oceans. "Detectability" is a silly metric which tells you nothing about this issue. Molecules are really, really, ridiculously small. Most of the breaths you take contain atoms from Caesar's last gasp, but that doesn't tell you anything useful about the prevalence of Caesar.

The articles linked talk about antibiotic-resistant genes being passed from organisms in hog waste lagoons (and hospitals) to organisms in groundwater. DNA is a molecule, yes, but a molecule with the will to survive.
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