Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping • Hacker News Board

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#81

Post by adventured » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 3:21 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #54

toyg wrote: post #6

This is a tragedy. We need to reboot email. Encrypt everything, including metadata -- given current hardware, the client can easily bruteforce it from a list of known keys. Build some sort of easy key distribution tool (connecting via p2p, dns, whatever, just build a goddamn UI). Ask existing transports to relax their restrictions enough to let fully-encrypted mail through, and build some intelligent webmail interfac…

I think we need to go one step further than encryption. We need to encrypt all communications expensively . Make algorithms which can be tuned to be arbitrarily expensive, computation-wise. Tune them so that it takes as much time as we can bear to encrypt and decrypt an email. Seconds, ideally. The goal is to make it so that some large fraction of our computational resources are taken up encrypting and decrypting com…

If you hold assets in US dollars, or generally speaking use commodities and have a currency bound to the dollar in any way, they're consuming your wealth to keep up with that arbitrary increase of cost on computation. That means, you can never outlast them or win a war of attrition. They have your bank account via deficit financing (or taxes optionally). The only reason we have such a massive military + intelligence system to begin with is they can use inflationary means for financing it all (aka steal your purchasing power).

There's only one successful way to fight this: change the culture and change the politics.

Technical approaches are fine for shielding you today. At the rate the police state is accelerating, it's very unlikely to shield you tomorrow, as they're going to outlaw the means of shielding. They will not allow an arms race, they'll use their legal powers to shut it down, and make you a criminal.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#82

Post by walshemj » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 3:23 PM UTC

lmickh wrote: post #64

walshemj wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but in the us freedom of speech is not universally applied ie you employer can sack you for what you say for example "oh maybe we should organize a union" or maybe "the NHS model is a good idea" Any changes need to apply universally and not just to the government.

That is pretty much the definition of freedom of speech universally applied. You are free to say what you want and your employer is free to say things like "you're fired." Freedom of speech != speech without consequence.

You would be fine with the Government throwing you in jail for what you said then.

By that argument the Weiße Rose in ww2 Germany had free speech but they still got beheaded for it.

the UNHC defination is "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

Note the "without interference"!

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#83

Post by makomk » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 3:24 PM UTC

kghose wrote: post #62

I have a counter-current question (and I feel that this should be a legitimate site for asking such questions, because we are all hackers here). Were lavabit, groklaw profitable and/or widely popular? Is it possible that these are sites that are not profitable and would have been shutdown anyway but which are now using privacy as an excuse for shutting down? This does not excuse the misuse of governmental powers, but…

Groklaw was widely popular a few years ago; this is the most attention they've got in years. Since they've basically never covered anything secret in their entire existence, and PJ has apparently done ethically questionable things in the past to keep attention on herself, pardon me if I'm a bit suspicious about this. (For example, she supposedly shadowbanned not just commenters who disagreed with her, but supporters who were becoming popular and effective enough to compete with her, along with anyone who mentioned this.)

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#84

Post by toyg » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 3:24 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #35

cgshaw wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't depend on anonymous tips, but encourages them. PJ is basically saying she wants to prevent folks from sending her honest questions about things they have done or are involved from admitting guilt to law enforcement who can read everything.

Make sense, but I still think it's an overreaction. My original question still stands (is it irresponsible for the EFF/ACLU/etc to continue to operate with an online mailbox?), and I would also argue that PJ could mitigate this by simply removing any contact form or information from her site. Yes, people who know her email can still contact her anyway but obviously, that means they can already do that after the site…

>is it irresponsible for the EFF/ACLU/etc to continue to operate with an online mailbox?

It's actually fairly dangerous, knowing what we know now.

There is a reason the powers that be are so rattled by these revelations: the tactical advantage they're currently enjoying is huge.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#85

Post by nwh » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 3:25 PM UTC

cLeEOGPw wrote: post #38

toyg wrote: post #6

This is a tragedy. We need to reboot email. Encrypt everything, including metadata -- given current hardware, the client can easily bruteforce it from a list of known keys. Build some sort of easy key distribution tool (connecting via p2p, dns, whatever, just build a goddamn UI). Ask existing transports to relax their restrictions enough to let fully-encrypted mail through, and build some intelligent webmail interfac…

Any centralized service can be ordered to hand over encrypted material or to implement a backdoor, similar to Lavabit case. Bitmessage could be one possible type of solution. That way the only way to compromise the message (assuming it is as safe as bitcoin, not claiming bitmessage is) would be to compromise the sender or the receiver, both is much more secure than any email service. And they could not make any backd…

Bitmessage is not the solution. If you tell me your address (and related public key), it can just be modified on the wire to MITM the communication. There's no getting around that.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#86

Post by Shivetya » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 3:25 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #58

saalweachter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to go one step further than encryption. We need to encrypt all communications expensively . Make algorithms which can be tuned to be arbitrarily expensive, computation-wise. Tune them so that it takes as much time as we can bear to encrypt and decrypt an email. Seconds, ideally. The goal is to make it so that some large fraction of our computational resources are taken up encrypting and decrypting com…

Historically speaking, the US Government is pretty damn good at winning wars of attrition. Don't think you're going to find any amount of money that Congress won't happily hand to the military-industrial complex. They'll spend whatever it takes.

then the people need to keep voting new people into office until the politicians GET IT.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#87

Post by unoti » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 3:31 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #58

saalweachter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to go one step further than encryption. We need to encrypt all communications expensively . Make algorithms which can be tuned to be arbitrarily expensive, computation-wise. Tune them so that it takes as much time as we can bear to encrypt and decrypt an email. Seconds, ideally. The goal is to make it so that some large fraction of our computational resources are taken up encrypting and decrypting com…

Historically speaking, the US Government is pretty damn good at winning wars of attrition. Don't think you're going to find any amount of money that Congress won't happily hand to the military-industrial complex. They'll spend whatever it takes.

Does this apply to Viet Nam, and Mission Accomplished?

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#88

Post by xradionut » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 3:31 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #81

saalweachter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to go one step further than encryption. We need to encrypt all communications expensively . Make algorithms which can be tuned to be arbitrarily expensive, computation-wise. Tune them so that it takes as much time as we can bear to encrypt and decrypt an email. Seconds, ideally. The goal is to make it so that some large fraction of our computational resources are taken up encrypting and decrypting com…

If you hold assets in US dollars, or generally speaking use commodities and have a currency bound to the dollar in any way, they're consuming your wealth to keep up with that arbitrary increase of cost on computation. That means, you can never outlast them or win a war of attrition. They have your bank account via deficit financing (or taxes optionally). The only reason we have such a massive military + intelligence…

"There's only one successful way to fight this: change the culture and change the politics."

Not going to happen short of a mass global natural disaster or mass military takeover changing the stakes. There's too much power concentrated at the top and no good reason for the people there to surrender any of it. If the masses get too persistent, they will "cull" the masses through whatever means...

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#89

Post by luscious » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 3:32 PM UTC

ganeumann wrote: post #51

luscious wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, this, this. You can't let yourselves lose a power war by wasting all your time losing tactical battles. It's a tragedy if we all spend any time trying to protect our LOLs and OMGs to-from each other. If you are working on means for tracking behavior and extracting value (monetary, political, etc.) you are doing something less good than you could be. Don't get caught by rope-a-dope when you could just cut fundin…

We need a plan B. It may be that the citizens have already lost this power war. Certainly the reaction of the UK police to the uproar (if it's that) of the Miranda detention and the snarkiness of the White House Dep. Press Secretary about being informed says to me that they don't really care what we think. And if they don't care it's either because they know they don't have to care (because we're not powerful enough)…

Sorry. The analogy breaks down. Once you fork a government, there really isn't a mechanism to submit a pull request.

Anyways... No, you don't work within the system. You can't move fast enough to grassroots the elimination of funding for CIA and NSA and ancillary groups within military and war contractors. Any amount of traction will fail since there would be an asymmetrical and tactical-heavy process. You will lose against the financial and political interests of the ruling class. If the financial and political ruling class sees such a crowning jewel get it, they will FTFO and see it as a portent for things closer to their own power. The intelligence groups are the necessary brain to the necessary brawn that keeps the geopolitics in line with their bottom line.

The chasm between rich and poor is getting so far in the US that this is the beginning... you can't trust the poor. There's too many of them!

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#90

Post by floatboth » Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 3:33 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #76

cLeEOGPw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any centralized service can be ordered to hand over encrypted material or to implement a backdoor, similar to Lavabit case. Bitmessage could be one possible type of solution. That way the only way to compromise the message (assuming it is as safe as bitcoin, not claiming bitmessage is) would be to compromise the sender or the receiver, both is much more secure than any email service. And they could not make any backd…

The problem with P2P is that you need "Ps" online at the same time in order to exchange data. One of the elements that allowed for the email revolution was the asynchronous nature of exchanges: I'll send an email now and you'll receive it whenever you're online. Requiring coordination is a non-starter. Personally, as long as the encryption was entirely done client-side with opensource tools, and done properly (i.e. n…

Have you read the Bitmessage paper?

You can receive a message whenever you're online. The encrypted message is broadcast to a lot of people, at least one of them should be online when you go online.