Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

pachamama.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 193 posts

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#81

Post by dredmorbius »

petercooper wrote: post #5
alipang wrote: post #3

Better article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/world/europe/oslo-copes-wi...

This is a naïve but genuine question.. is shipping trash from the UK to Norway and then setting it on fire better for the environment than burying it? (Or, at the very least, is it better to burn trash than to extract and burn something else?)

One thing about shipping costs are that they're very low.

A number from oil tankers: the "freight cost" of shipping a supertanker's worth of oil halfway around the world works out to a few pennies per gallon -- 1% of the net cost, and an even smaller fraction of the energy content.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#82

Post by Cederfjard »

jlgreco wrote: post #73
philsnow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. I think he means that there are 10 cans for the entire condo complex. Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Consider the opposite extreme, having a single bin that absolutely everything…

How does 10+ cans for a condo complex work? 10+ different chutes? Do you have to walk your trash down to the trashcans yourself?

Yeah, that's the way it's usually done (that you walk your trash down to a common room where the cans are, that is). All garbage chutes I've seen in the last few years have been bolted shut.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#83

Post by willvarfar »

mhb wrote: post #62
philsnow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. I think he means that there are 10 cans for the entire condo complex. Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Consider the opposite extreme, having a single bin that absolutely everything…

It's counterintuive to me that forcing people to sort their trash will lead to a fondness for recycling. Did the draft engender a fondness for the Vietnam war? A different approach would be to charge people for trash pickup. If the cost for sorted trash removal is enough of a savings, then people will do it.

(Living in Sweden)

Actually, the Swedes really do believe in this. Everyone I know conscientiously sorts their trash.

A Swede will happy carry their own bags up to their rooms in hotels, too. Most hotels don't have porters. They don't have the whole tipping thing either generally. You go through life doing things for yourself, not paying others to do things for you.

Maybe its the US psyche and is some kind of superiority complex? I'm half-serious; why do people on your side of the pond think its a hassle to sort their trash?

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#84

Post by [deleted] »

Cederfjard wrote: post #82
jlgreco wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does 10+ cans for a condo complex work? 10+ different chutes? Do you have to walk your trash down to the trashcans yourself?

Yeah, that's the way it's usually done (that you walk your trash down to a common room where the cans are, that is). All garbage chutes I've seen in the last few years have been bolted shut.

[deleted]

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#85

Post by anigbrowl »

gvr wrote: post #46

My dad's condo [edit: condo complex] in Sweden has 10+ different trash cans. You divide your trash into individuals cans for batteries, bulbs, cardboard, paper, compostables, and so forth. I don't know but I assume that part of the reason that Swedes are able to deal effectively with the trash is that they sort it properly at the source, so that they more easily can process it. When I read stuff like this it honestly…

essentially free of homeless

I feel it's worth mentioning that other cities and even other states have long had an unofficial policy of sending their homeless/crazy people to places like SF. This has now become the subject of lawsuits - see for example http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/12/first-lawsuit-fil...

As a fellow Euro, I agree with your overall argument, however.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#86

Post by rorrr2 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #53
gvr wrote: post #46

My dad's condo [edit: condo complex] in Sweden has 10+ different trash cans. You divide your trash into individuals cans for batteries, bulbs, cardboard, paper, compostables, and so forth. I don't know but I assume that part of the reason that Swedes are able to deal effectively with the trash is that they sort it properly at the source, so that they more easily can process it. When I read stuff like this it honestly…

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person

It's actually much more efficient. Sorting is expensive. Collecting cans is trivial.

I would love to have 10 cans and help the environment. Something like this:

Glass, plastic, paper, metal, bio/food, electronics, rubber, textiles, everything else.

Right now most of that stuff gets mixed and gets piled up polluting ground water.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#87

Post by malyk »

sebcat wrote: post #55
alipang wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the point he makes is that the same is true for the other statistics. It'd probably be cheaper environmentally for a garbage truck to pick up all your garbage for instance, rather than each person traveling to the recycling center themselves.

I've lived in a couple of villages/towns/cities in Sweden, and the garbage trucks do pick up the sorted household garbage. Recycling centers are for stuff like old furniture, used engine oil, etc. I guess you could implement a system for that too. Inform the city when you have less common items to throw away and when the quota for your neighborhood is full, a truck gets dispatched to pick it up. Would require some ex…

In Oakland you get one free "bulk load" trash pickup a year kindly provided by Waste Management.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#88

Post by gvr »

willvarfar wrote: post #83
mhb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's counterintuive to me that forcing people to sort their trash will lead to a fondness for recycling. Did the draft engender a fondness for the Vietnam war? A different approach would be to charge people for trash pickup. If the cost for sorted trash removal is enough of a savings, then people will do it.

(Living in Sweden) Actually, the Swedes really do believe in this. Everyone I know conscientiously sorts their trash. A Swede will happy carry their own bags up to their rooms in hotels, too. Most hotels don't have porters. They don't have the whole tipping thing either generally. You go through life doing things for yourself, not paying others to do things for you. Maybe its the US psyche and is some kind of superio…

I think you're dead on with the "boo-hoo god forbid I'd have to sort my trash, raise my own kid, pack my grocery bag, carry my luggage mentality."

Whenever I'm offered these services I feel annoyed - what do I look like, a giant baby? I can carry my own bag.

The larger the wealth gap is in society, the more people become obsessed with comparing themselves to others and the more patterns we see designed to enable them to feel they come out on top in this comparison.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#89

Post by anateus »

EGreg wrote: post #11

Are there any negative externalities turning garbage into energy? What are the byproducts? Pollution released into the air? Spread to everyone else? Because this is wonderful!

Massive amounts of CO2 primarily. Also dioxins, but there are ways to combat that they may be be employed.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#90

Post by dekz »

mhb wrote: post #62
philsnow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. I think he means that there are 10 cans for the entire condo complex. Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Consider the opposite extreme, having a single bin that absolutely everything…

It's counterintuive to me that forcing people to sort their trash will lead to a fondness for recycling. Did the draft engender a fondness for the Vietnam war? A different approach would be to charge people for trash pickup. If the cost for sorted trash removal is enough of a savings, then people will do it.

Are you really under the impression that there are people out there who believe recycling is immoral and will lead to countless deaths?
Post reply on HN