The entire US Code is now online in XML • Hacker News Board

Re: The entire US Code is now online in XML

#81

Post by pseingatl » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:50 PM UTC

liscovich wrote: post #79

If you were to start a new country, what would the legislative process look like there? For example, how should new "startup nations" like BlueSeed ( http://blueseed.co ) inspired by Seasteading Institute go about passing and storing laws? Should they have some sort of open github repo to which anyone can make pull requests? How do you see the congress of the future?

You can look at relatively small jurisdictions and copy what's appropriate. Throw out hunting and fishing and take Alaska's laws in 1959 and you've got the minimum for a jurisdiction. Same for the Canal Zone. You can add legislation from other jurisdictions that works, like New Zealand's torrens (not torrent) system. Alberta's condo laws. I wrote a set of laws for a new jurisdiction, there's no reason to start from scratch.

Re: The entire US Code is now online in XML

#82

Post by gohrt » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:51 PM UTC

tsax wrote: post #70

lobotryas wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make this sound like a bad thing. Would you really prefer "black and white" laws that leave zero room for flexibility or interpretation in light of a given situation?

I suspect he's simply warning against mistaking the formal spec (US code) for enforcement.

Just as you shoulding mistake the formal spec (requirements document) for an explanation of how software works.

Re: The entire US Code is now online in XML

#83

Post by pseingatl » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:52 PM UTC

I can't wait to look for the law whereby Congress established a church in violation of the Establishment Clause. But no one complained.

Re: The entire US Code is now online in XML

#84

Post by dailyrorschach » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:53 PM UTC

pdw wrote: post #80

I'm annoyed that Title 38 - Veteran's Benefits is out of alphabetical order. Was it originally called Pensions or something?

Yes, old name is: Title 38 - Pensions, Bonuses, and Veterans' Relief

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2004-title38-vol1/content-d...

Re: The entire US Code is now online in XML

#85

Post by dnautics » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:54 PM UTC

pdw wrote: post #80

I'm annoyed that Title 38 - Veteran's Benefits is out of alphabetical order. Was it originally called Pensions or something?

I'm more annoyed that they are out of order with reference to which clause in Article I, section 8 their existence is justified by - but I suspect there's a reason for that.

Re: The entire US Code is now online in XML

#86

Post by pseingatl » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:55 PM UTC

tianhe wrote: post #18

liscovich wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the schema guide explains, in 1999 they picked XML based on the study from 1996: "Following a 1999 feasibility study on XML/SGML, the Committee on House Administration adopted XML as a data standard for the exchange of legislative documents" http://uscodebeta.house.gov/download/resources/USLM-User-Gui... It took the US Govt 17 years to release 200,000 pages of the US code in XML.

I think the most time consuming part of the conversion is from text to digital. That's what took so long. Interchanging formats should be relatively easy. Back in 1999, json wasn't even around. IMO in today's API centric, and javascript ruled world. json would be a lot more useful.

I wonder why. The U.S. Code was in electronic format by the 1980's. The Air Force had FLITE, Justice had Juris, and then there's Lexis and Nexis.

Re: The entire US Code is now online in XML

#87

Post by maaku » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:55 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #6

I'm really tempted to collect the XML files and put them on github, with periodic checkpoints to update it with the latest. Watching the evolution of law over time is a fascinating thing and using SW engineering tools to help would be really fun.

It would be even awesome-er (and more useful) if you could parse individual bills and amendments into diffs, which get merged into 'master' as they become law.

I'd love to `git blame` the U.S. code.

Re: The entire US Code is now online in XML

#88

Post by GFischer » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:56 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #54

tmoertel wrote: post #43

It's tragic that the United States (Federal) Legislative Model (USLM) is defined in terms of W3C XML Schema Definition language (XSD) instead of the comparably sane RELAX NG and its easily interpreted compact syntax. You would think that something this important ought to be made clear and understandable. EDITED TO CLARIFY: The tragic part isn't that the schema is given in XSD but that it's defined in XSD, which lacks…

In practice, it probably doesn't make any difference. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that XSD is expressive enough to allow the authors to say what they're trying to say, in an unambiguous way, it's more or less a moot point. RELAX/NG is awesome, sure... but to some extent the "war" between it and XSD is a religious war. Pretty much every popular & widely used language / platform has XSD support... hell, it's so…

I didn't need to know about INTERCAL and Befunge :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTERCAL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge

Re: The entire US Code is now online in XML

#89

Post by rayiner » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 7:58 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #69

OldSchool wrote: post #53

Caveat for for many of us overly rational thinkers: the powers that be deliberately are allowed to 'interpret' this code nondeterministically by many different means including its 'spirit,' admissibility of relevant information, manipulation of venue and participants, apparently even extrajudicial proceedings lately. In short, that allows a lawyer to answer almost any question with "it depends," and start billing.

"In short, that allows a lawyer to answer almost any question with "it depends," and start billing. " No, this is usually "lack of sufficient facts to answer question". If a crime has 4 elements, and you've said you've committed 3 and maybe the 4th depending on how you look at it, the answer to the question "can i be convicted" is "it depends", because it depends on the argument about the 4th element. If your followu…

Right. It should be noted that appellate practice, which is really where the big debates about legal interpretation happen, the "what does this comma mean" work, is not exactly a cash cow for the industry. It's a brand-building practice, but outside boutiques it's not what pays the rent. What pays the rent is factual disputes, where its pretty clear what the law is, but there is disagreement about who did what with what intent and how much did it cost.

Re: The entire US Code is now online in XML

#90

Post by liscovich » Wed, Jul 31, 2013, 8:05 PM UTC

adregan wrote: post #13

liscovich wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the schema guide explains, in 1999 they picked XML based on the study from 1996: "Following a 1999 feasibility study on XML/SGML, the Committee on House Administration adopted XML as a data standard for the exchange of legislative documents" http://uscodebeta.house.gov/download/resources/USLM-User-Gui... It took the US Govt 17 years to release 200,000 pages of the US code in XML.

I wonder if 17 years is fast for the government or slow.

We might have to wait even longer for all the common law based on the court rulings to be published in the same format. Not to mention the "secret common law" based on the FISA court rulings.