81–90 of 97 posts
She could've presented her critique without turning it into a gender issue: >I won't be the nice girl anymore.
I don't understand how that turns it into a gender issue. Should she have said "nice guy" instead?
I like Rusty Russell's point of view: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1525480 " You have to be harsh with code: People mistake politeness for uncertainty. Whenever I said 'I prefer if you XYZ' some proportion didn't realize I meant 'Don't argue unless you have new facts: do XYZ or go away.' This wastes my time, so I started being explicit. But be gentle with people. You've already called their baby ugly."
Does she read Hacker News?! Why on Earth would she like LKML to be some kind of politically correct cesspool like this forum?
Not being an asshole does NOT have to equal being politically correct. She's advocating clarity WITHOUT verbal abuse. That's SO easy to do: if you filter out the f-bombs that are directed at people as well as the STFU's and you're there.
There is so much in between verbal abuse and killing each other with kindness, it's not even funny. I find it sad that even Torvalds thinks in black and white like that. And then he hides behind "that's just who I am". Whatever. Very mature. I wouldn't even consider becoming a Linux kernel maintainer, much like I would quit my job the day my boss decides to treat his employees this way.
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Which is the exact opposite of doing it in person though, it's being all cute and funny about it. Actually doing that in person would look and feel radically different.
i'm 100% certain linus is not being cute, or funny. he means it when he says certain people are stupid.
Also, stupid is relative anyway. Who isn't stupid? Is Linus actually that stupid that he thinks he isn't stupid? And if he is, what kind of weight does he think this insult carries out of his mouth? Stuff gets tricky real quick like that.
I like Rusty Russell's point of view: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1525480 " You have to be harsh with code: People mistake politeness for uncertainty. Whenever I said 'I prefer if you XYZ' some proportion didn't realize I meant 'Don't argue unless you have new facts: do XYZ or go away.' This wastes my time, so I started being explicit. But be gentle with people. You've already called their baby ugly."
Earlier quoted context omitted.
In some ways, Linus is not wrong. Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone. This does not mean you run around screaming at people, usually, that gets you fired. However, these folks have formed their own community, and set the rules of conduct for it. If she wants to try to change those, great. But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ larg…
In some ways, Linus is not wrong. Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone. That's still a strawman, and not a valid response to anything she actually said. But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ large to come down on them. (At least from where I sit, she is trying to do the latter, rather than the former. Maybe i'm misreading it though)…
Actually, this was Linus's response to what she said, and as I said, he's not wrong. She wanted people to stop spouting verbal abuse and treat everyone civilly. Linus's response was that this is essentially fake civility and fake professionalism, and as I said, he's not wrong.
"Have you read the actual mailing list discussion? She's rather patient, polite and constructive, while Linus spouts mostly BS like the above strawman. So how do you come up with that "agenda" of hers?"
1. Yes, I have.
2. Because she posted on G+ asking for the support of others outside of the community to support her?
The very first line of the post says:
Please speak up, either here on Google+ by resharing this
post, or commenting on this post with words of support. If
you dare, you can also reply to my lkml email.
"Then try thinking, it could go a little something like this: maybe, just maybe, she's the first mentally grown up person to stroll deep enough into that mailing list to ever raise the point. This is not wrong, just awkward, and "that's just the way I am" is a response fit for a 5 year old."
No, actually, she isn't. I've been on various versions of LKML since 1998, and she is definitely not the first mentally grown up person to complain. Posting to G+ to get the general support of others not on LKML to go yell at LKML seems, as I said, quite wrong.
Maybe you'd care to explain why you believe Linus is wrong, rather than saying it's a response for a 5 year old? People have the right to build and associate with the communities they like. She doesn't like his community. How is trying to get random people on G+ to complain about it anything but the response of a 5 year old?
BTW, your tone does not come across as very civil or professional.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
In some ways, Linus is not wrong. Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone. That's still a strawman, and not a valid response to anything she actually said. But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ large to come down on them. (At least from where I sit, she is trying to do the latter, rather than the former. Maybe i'm misreading it though)…
"That's still a strawman, and not a valid response to anything she actually said." Actually, this was Linus's response to what she said, and as I said, he's not wrong. She wanted people to stop spouting verbal abuse and treat everyone civilly. Linus's response was that this is essentially fake civility and fake professionalism, and as I said, he's not wrong. "Have you read the actual mailing list discussion? She's ra…
As I said, after she tried to reason with them, on that list. You know, opposed to copying and pasting lots of flamewars she just came across and blogging about it.
No, actually, she isn't. I've been on various versions of LKML since 1998, and she is definitely not the first mentally grown up person to complain.
That just makes it worse, you know. So they're a lost cause then.
Maybe you'd care to explain why you believe Linus is wrong, rather than saying it's a response for a 5 year old?
"That's just how I am" is shallow unreflected bullshit no matter the context. In context, he's deluded if he thinks he couldn't be just as blunt and firm without making such an ass of himself. He talks about "playing the victim card" right after playing the "that's just how I am card", I'm sorry, but this is so fucking stupid that I'd rather just laugh at it, and anyone defending it. You can make up your narrative for that and think it proves whatever; I just can't be arsed.
BTW, your tone does not come across as very civil or professional.
Because I implied brainlessness? Aww. Well, that last line comes across as passive-aggressive and vague, and I suggest if you want to say something or think you have a point there, just make it. Did I claim I am better? To the contrary, that's why I don't buy the antics of Linus. Even if I did claim I was very civil and professional while not actually being that, it would detract zero from what I said.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
"That's still a strawman, and not a valid response to anything she actually said." Actually, this was Linus's response to what she said, and as I said, he's not wrong. She wanted people to stop spouting verbal abuse and treat everyone civilly. Linus's response was that this is essentially fake civility and fake professionalism, and as I said, he's not wrong. "Have you read the actual mailing list discussion? She's ra…
2. Because she posted on G+ asking for the support of others outside of the community to support her? [..] I'm not sure how you read it another way? It deliberately tries to invoke people who do not participate in LKML As I said, after she tried to reason with them, on that list. You know, opposed to copying and pasting lots of flamewars she just came across and blogging about it. No, actually, she isn't. I've been o…
This doesn't really change my point that it's honestly, nobody else's business what a given community decides to set for it's rules, unless that community is somehow impinging on other people's rights.
Here, it isn't. They keep to themselves. So yes, in some sense, if she can't get people in the community to agree, she should take her ball and go home. Appealing to mass authority in an attempt to generate pressure is not cool.
If i want to form a group of assholes that write software, that's on me. If you want to participate in my group of assholes, that's on you.
Asking random people on G+ to whine at me for being an asshole in that group is just childish.
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This is a false dichotomy. I do a lot of code review, both in my day job and for many open source projects. I've never had to verbally abuse someone to explain the changes I wanted to see in a patch. (OSS projects I've done code review on include: Django, PyPy, Topaz, CPython, Twisted, and OpenStack)
Maybe if you did, we might have had Python 3 support in Django years ago. :P
(NOTE: this comment may have been written just to slam Python and the GIL... I hate it so much)
So, can anyone tell me what Sarah Sharp has contributed to the kernel?
What role do you play in the community and/or what subsystem(s) do you work on? I'm the Linux kernel xHCI driver maintainer. I own Linux USB 3.0 support, and I send my patches up to Greg Kroah-Hartman, who is the USB subsystem maintainer. Where do you get your paycheck? I work in Intel's Open Source Technology Center, along with a bunch of other cool Linux kernel developers. -- Sourced from https://www.linux.com/news…