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Perl Startups: Lacuna Expanse

blogs.perl.org

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Re: Perl Startups: Lacuna Expanse

#81

Post by nnq »

> Ruby has nothing that Perl doesn't have (at least that I've seen). Therefore no reason to switch

...such a "wrong" way to think! You can say that you'll stick to Perl because you know it better and it has the same feature set. But you can't say that you won't use some other language just because "it has no extra features".

The advantages of a programming a language over another are not its "features". All it matters is:

- "learnability" - how fast can you learn it (not "hello world", but how fast can you get to the level of writing "big" and maintainable projects in it)

- productivity - how productive are you coding in it once you know it well

- maintainability - how well can you maintain code written in that language

- security - how easy it is to write secure code in it

...because when it comes to features even assembler has all the features you need. And no, for a language to have a "productivity" feature (like features that make OOP possible), is not the same as actually benefiting from the possible productivity increases of that feature - for example, having an object system that is "too" complex and not in-tune with the language (eg. CLOS) or having multiple object systems (Perl), doesn't give you anything close to the benefits of a good and clean Smalltak-flavored object system like Ruby's. Or, having all the features required for functional programming (like Python, Perl, and even Ruby have), is nowhere near as useful as having them well thought and in a language that emphasizes this paradigm, like Clojure.

Re: Perl Startups: Lacuna Expanse

#82

Post by chromatic »

nnq wrote: post #81

> Ruby has nothing that Perl doesn't have (at least that I've seen). Therefore no reason to switch ...such a "wrong" way to think! You can say that you'll stick to Perl because you know it better and it has the same feature set. But you can't say that you won't use some other language just because "it has no extra features". The advantages of a programming a language over another are not its "features". All it matter…

But you can't say that you won't use some other language just because "it has no extra features".

Sure you can! The cost of switching languages may outweigh the expected value of the extra features, especially if they're only marginally more useful or not useful at all.

* ... the benefits of a good and clean Smalltak-flavored object system like Ruby's.*

I'm unconvinced. Ruby's hacky metaprogramming is hacky because you just don't get the Smalltalk browser without an image-based environment. You can make huge messes in Smalltalk if you monkeypatch hither and yon, but you also get better tools to help avoid the situation and to extricate yourself from it.

Re: Perl Startups: Lacuna Expanse

#84

Post by Patrick_Devine »

chromatic wrote: post #68
Patrick_Devine wrote: post #23

The largest reason why I would hesitate to use Perl in my startup would be the core philosophy of TIMTOWTDI (there is more than one way to do it). Being able to write something multiple different ways leads to Perl being a lot easier to write than it is to read. As a result code maintenance can become a huge headache due to someone not understanding the idioms used by the person who originally wrote the code. I've se…

As a result code maintenance can become a huge headache due to someone not understanding the idioms used by the person who originally wrote the code. I don't understand this. If this hurts you, wouldn't you have the same problem with domain knowledge, except an order of magnitude worse? Why are your developers not talking to each other?

Teams are dynamic, not static. You can have new hires, you can lose people and you can get code written by others that you have to maintain (especially the case with CPAN).

I agree this is also a problem with domain knowledge. The second you commit something to your code base the clock starts ticking. The further away from your own code, the harder it is to have context and the more difficult it is to fix problems. If you feel like you can jump back in to your Perl code easily after a prolonged absence, by all means, do it. My point was only that in Perl, it's easy to use many different idioms which not all coders are familiar with. This can make debugging more difficult.

Re: Perl Startups: Lacuna Expanse

#85

Post by greglindahl »

perigrin wrote: post #70
greglindahl wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We qualify, we're still losing money! :-)

So is Amazon! You're startup buddies!

This isn't really the place to argue about the definition of a startup, but "has lost money continuously since inception" and "hasn't IPOed" are on the list of many people when they define what a startup is. Amazon has both IPOed and has had many quarters of profit.

Re: Perl Startups: Lacuna Expanse

#86

Post by danbmil99 »

gabriel wrote: post #51
Patrick_Devine wrote: post #23

The largest reason why I would hesitate to use Perl in my startup would be the core philosophy of TIMTOWTDI (there is more than one way to do it). Being able to write something multiple different ways leads to Perl being a lot easier to write than it is to read. As a result code maintenance can become a huge headache due to someone not understanding the idioms used by the person who originally wrote the code. I've se…

What language prevents TIMTOWTDI? And don't say Python. I'm not talking about the language motto. Because that's the nature of using these things called programming languages: http://www.paulgraham.com/langdes.html Python has Pep8. Perl has Perl::Critic. C# has FxCop. Etc. I've not yet seen any language possess the qualities that prevent it from being unreadable. It's an amazing open question though, isn't it? I thin…

In my X, for whatever reasons (lang design, culture, etc) Python is most definitely the easiest language to read and understand what another programmer is trying to do.

I don't think the most rabid PERL fanboy would ever make a similar claim.

Re: Perl Startups: Lacuna Expanse

#87

Post by Ovid »

netvarun wrote: post #36

We (Semantics3) are a perl shop too! Other YC companies, AFAIK that use Perl are: Crowdtilt and Terascore

As the author of the original blog post, this is good to know. When I have some more time, I'll get around to contacting you if you're willing to do a similar interview.
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