Live data from Hacker News

Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

yosefk.com

81–90 of 123 posts

Re: Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

#81

You should call yourself whatever based on the situation. If you are hanging out with a group of consultants, you call yourself consultant; if you are a special effects programmer, and talking to a model, you say you're in the movie business; if you are interviewing with the author, you call yourself programmer. The best way to connect with others is to understand how they perceive things and find ways to relate to t…

This so obvious I'm amazed that it isn't discussed every time this topic comes up. Programmers seem to think that there is something "dirty" about adjusting your language according to audience.

Adjusting your language based on context is fine, but there's a very thin line to being dishonest, even if it's just by omission.

And it's different for everybody. For me, saying you're "in the movie business" when you're doing special effects is this side of the line. Saying you're a consultant when you're not has your toes slowly creeping across - because the set of skills for each is actually different.

How much we're willing to "adjust" depends a lot on our tolerance for stories vs. facts.

Re: Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

#82
post #50
post #4

A few comments: 1. To me, however, a programmer is who I'm looking for, while a resume full of revenue increases and cost reductions sounds like an "anomalously high-cost parasite who types some mumbo-jumbo into Excel and PowerPoint, claiming credit for others' work". This is in no small part because you are a programmer. The vast majority of people who pay other people for work that involves programming are not prog…

My replies to your points: 1. Do you have stats? In absolute terms, a whole lot of people hiring programmers have programmed themselves. How do you know the other people hiring programmers are "the vast majority"? (I sincerely wonder about it. I cited two numbers by two bloggers, one says it's 80% of the cases, the other says 90%. I have no idea, but I intuitively feel it's less than 50%. Are there real stats?) 2. I…

1. There are far more non-programmers than programmers. Even with a correlation between being a programmer and hiring programmers, it is plausible that the vast majority of hiring managers are non-programmers. This becomes more plausible if you step back a layer to the budget allocation for headcount rather than specific hiring decision.

Re: Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

#83
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the trend of calling people who code 'engineers.' It's just not a good title for anything to do with software. And invariably people who embrace its usage seem to be trying to compensate or ignorant of what a real engineer actually does or is.

Unless your definition of 'engineer' is someone who drives a train, I don't see how 'engineering' doesn't apply to coding. At least good coding. I was an electrical engineer before being a software engineer. There is a difference in what level of the stack I focus on now, but there is very little difference in how I design solutions and think through problems (though hopefully I've continued to get better). Most of m…

Here is an explanation that I read in a book of Steve McConnell's a decade ago.

Certain types of tasks (eg building a bridge) require an engineer to sign off on the work. And the engineer is personally liable should the design of the bridge prove faulty. An engineer is a person whose license allows them to make those representations and have it be accepted.

Most software developers lack that license, and cannot legally sign off on designs. And as an industry we don't value software development's expertise as a final say on what does or does not fly. The consequence is chronic security problems, nonfunctional software, privacy specifications, etc, etc, etc.

As a society, we are not OK with bridges falling down. But apparently we are OK with having software projects routinely overrun budgets by 100+% and still fail to deliver required functionality.

Steve McConnell makes the case in http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Software-Development-Sche... that if a true software engineering profession was recognized - not just software developers being called software developers but actual engineering certifications in the field of software development - we could begin fixing this. I don't think it will happen, nor am I totally supportive of that approach - but he makes a case worth reading.

Re: Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

#84
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This so obvious I'm amazed that it isn't discussed every time this topic comes up. Programmers seem to think that there is something "dirty" about adjusting your language according to audience.

> Programmers seem to think that there is something "dirty" about adjusting your language according to audience. Yes. I am struggling with this right now, myself. I mean, not specifically that, but this general idea that putting effort into social bullshit that has little to do with my actual competence is dirty. It really /does/ feel dirty, and I have a difficult time articulating why. The problem is that I have mov…

I've recently found myself in a leadership role as well, and I don't think it has to do with whether people are business types or not. Humility is necessary to fit in with peers and to get along with superiors. Confidence is necessary to influence people (be they peers, superiors, or subordinates), and you can't manage without influence.

A piece of advice I've seen in a couple places is to focus on service, whether that's service to your organization or to the team you manage, or the customer. The idea is that it takes your focus off you and your communication skills, and lets you argue from what the company or team needs.

Re: Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

#85
post #84
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programmers seem to think that there is something "dirty" about adjusting your language according to audience. Yes. I am struggling with this right now, myself. I mean, not specifically that, but this general idea that putting effort into social bullshit that has little to do with my actual competence is dirty. It really /does/ feel dirty, and I have a difficult time articulating why. The problem is that I have mov…

I've recently found myself in a leadership role as well, and I don't think it has to do with whether people are business types or not. Humility is necessary to fit in with peers and to get along with superiors. Confidence is necessary to influence people (be they peers, superiors, or subordinates), and you can't manage without influence. A piece of advice I've seen in a couple places is to focus on service, whether t…

Edit: Yes, I know this sounds kind of... angry and juvenile. Bitter. That is what I meant when I said that I clearly don't have the correct solution.

a big part of the problem is that I don't even know what most of these words I'm using mean - And honestly? I think it's "confidence[1]" that other people say they do. Of course, I know I'm not competent enough in that area to know that for sure.

>I've recently found myself in a leadership role as well, and I don't think it has to do with whether people are business types or not. Humility is necessary to fit in with peers and to get along with superiors. Confidence is necessary to influence people (be they peers, superiors, or subordinates), and you can't manage without influence.

But when you are dealing with less-experienced Engineers, your accomplishments are that influence. And when you are dealing with more-experienced Engineers, well, you should be giving them requirements, and listening to them tell you what should be done. I mean, yeah, sometimes emotional bullshit intervenes, but it's bullshit I can mostly deal with.

As an example, I came in conflict with my apprentice a while back... I am fairly certain the conflict was caused by the fact that he had learned enough that he was, well, better than me for some of the parts of his job, and that wasn't the deal when he hired on. (I mean, it also wasn't true when he hired on; he worked here for a while, and he learned a lot.) I don't know how much of it was him not adjusting to our new roles and how much of it was me not adjusting to our new roles (and how much of it was me just not being able to pay him what he was worth; he ended up getting a much better job elsewhere.)

I mean, I didn't understand how to /fix/ the emotional bullshit, but I had a pretty good idea of what it was about. that's the thing about dealing with people who are primarily engineers; I'm not saying that I am good at managing Engineers? but when I screw it up, I usually have a pretty good idea of how or why I did so.

The problem is that when you deal with normal folks, they are influenced by what looks to me like empty arrogance. It's like they have no way of judging actual skill, so they say "Why don't we do what the tall guy says?" you know, they focus on things like posture and voice and how you dress... which really have nothing to do with anything that matters.

My other problem is that I've always been way better at managing down than managing /up/ - that's the primary reason I started my own company. If you always focus on what you think is best for the company and/or the customer? you are going to come into serious conflict with the management above you. [2]

>A piece of advice I've seen in a couple places is to focus on service, whether that's service to your organization or to the team you manage, or the customer. The idea is that it takes your focus off you and your communication skills, and lets you argue from what the company or team needs.

Yeah, well, it's my company, so I think I do keep my 'eyes on the prize' as it were. But that doesn't really help when it comes time to negotiate that big new bandwidth contract (or get them to interpret that contract in my favor, after it's signed.)

I mean, that's the thing. when you are negotiating with professionals, it's their job to take as much of the surplus value out of a deal as possible. It is, by definition, 'surplus value' - the difference between the highest price I'm willing to pay and the lowest price they are willing to give me.

(the other thing about negotiating with professionals that is not fun is that they usually don't have the attention span or the knowledge of their product offerings to negotiate other than in the emotional manipulation way. I'm very flexible, and very willing to line up what I buy to what they have surplus. I'm also very willing to share what I would like, and what I can be flexible on. A professional? generally speaking, wants to collapse that down to a linear type deal, where we pick a product and hammer eachother on price until someone is exhausted. Their secrecy destroys any possible gain in value from negotiation.)

Of course, now I'm conflating negotiation with influence in general, while I probably ought to think of those things separately.

[1]Confidence as in "a confidence game" - I don't think anyone understands human interaction the way you can understand, say, how a program works. The meaning of a word someone used early in a conversation changes towards the end of that conversation. This is where I'm lost with verbal communication. The line between "saying nice things to give someone a good feeling" and "outright lying" is... I don't even see it. I have no idea where that line is or if it even exists. Does a professional think it's even possible to lie in a medium that isn't recorded?

[2]some of the things my apprentice and I disagreed about would have fallen under this. The really funny thing, for me? was that I remember having nearly exactly the same fight with my boss when I was his age, and was working in a similar role. Things... look different when you have to balance the business end. But, fundamentally, I think I can learn to deal with those conflicts, because I understood where the guy was coming from.

Re: Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

#86
post #32

There's a major point in this article that not many commenters seem to be picking up on: there's a fork in the road of careers. To one side is a multilane highway over fairly level ground leading straigh to predictable suburbia. To the other side is an uneven dirt path leading through mountains and countryside to parts unknown and has many forks of its own. Neither path is right for everyone. And hardly anyone needs…

"Daddy, how is software made?" "Well, when a programmer loves an idea very much they stay up all night and then push to github the next day" It is really sad when one start do programming just for money.

Re: Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

#87
post #32

There's a major point in this article that not many commenters seem to be picking up on: there's a fork in the road of careers. To one side is a multilane highway over fairly level ground leading straigh to predictable suburbia. To the other side is an uneven dirt path leading through mountains and countryside to parts unknown and has many forks of its own. Neither path is right for everyone. And hardly anyone needs…

"Daddy, how is software made?" "Well, when a programmer loves an idea very much they stay up all night and then push to github the next day" It is really sad when one start do programming just for money.

Re: Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

#88
post #32

There's a major point in this article that not many commenters seem to be picking up on: there's a fork in the road of careers. To one side is a multilane highway over fairly level ground leading straigh to predictable suburbia. To the other side is an uneven dirt path leading through mountains and countryside to parts unknown and has many forks of its own. Neither path is right for everyone. And hardly anyone needs…

"Daddy, how is software made?" "Well, when a programmer loves an idea very much they stay up all night and then push to github the next day" It is really sad when one start do programming just for money.

Re: Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

#89
post #32

There's a major point in this article that not many commenters seem to be picking up on: there's a fork in the road of careers. To one side is a multilane highway over fairly level ground leading straigh to predictable suburbia. To the other side is an uneven dirt path leading through mountains and countryside to parts unknown and has many forks of its own. Neither path is right for everyone. And hardly anyone needs…

"Daddy, how is software made?" "Well, when a programmer loves an idea very much they stay up all night and then push to github the next day" It is really sad when one start do programming just for money.

Re: Do call yourself a programmer, and other career advice

#90
post #32

There's a major point in this article that not many commenters seem to be picking up on: there's a fork in the road of careers. To one side is a multilane highway over fairly level ground leading straigh to predictable suburbia. To the other side is an uneven dirt path leading through mountains and countryside to parts unknown and has many forks of its own. Neither path is right for everyone. And hardly anyone needs…

"Daddy, how is software made?" "Well, when a programmer loves an idea very much they stay up all night and then push to github the next day" It is really sad when one start do programming just for money.
Post reply on HN