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One cost engineers and product managers don't consider

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81–90 of 102 posts

Re: One cost engineers and product managers don't consider

#81
How do you know when you're making it too complex? On one hand you have Hello world! And on the other the vilain project manager requests.

But say you design a distributed system and its protocol, how do you know what is to keep and what is to delete ? We know the problem of over quality or complexity, but how do you know you're just right?

My feeling is that beeing too minimalist might refrain progress and discovery of new loved features.

Re: One cost engineers and product managers don't consider

#82

Would anybody speculate that the popularity of MVC and agile development has exacerbated this issue? I'm working for the first time on somebody elses code and with a group of develpers, and it seems like the answer to most problems is 'just add another model'. I stay away from that as much as I can, and try to make existing models fit new features and functions. Maybe it's just my current workplace, but is this a mor…

if you aren't allowed to spend more than 1-2 days writing and testing any particular unit of work, agglomeration is the dominant strategy.

Re: One cost engineers and product managers don't consider

#83
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the business units are so disconnected from engineering they don't even realize the costs of what they're asking for In software you get this at all levels, including in the freelance/consulting world - people have no clue of the costs of what they're asking for so when they can't even make bad guesses, they go with "how hard would it be..." for a big feature request or "can't you just..." for what they see as a sm…

You're putting way too much baggage on to "how hard". It doesn't necessarily carry any implications of "yesterday and with no budget"; it's a scoping question. "How much will it take and how much will it cost to... ?" condenses down to "how hard…". You can tell they're functionally equivalent because you can give the exact same answer to both. "Can't you just" is a whole different story, granted.

I somewhat agree with you, it's not "dishonesty", but when people phrase it like "how much will it take and how much will it cost to..." they usually have in mind the fact that it will take time and have a cost, whereas when they use the condensed variant, they tend to think that it can be "squeezed in there and worked on at the same time as everything else without delaying anything" ...it's folk psychology I know, but imho there's a more or less subconscious association between using the condensed form for talking about something and wanting to minimize the apparent cost/impact/etc. of it :)

Re: One cost engineers and product managers don't consider

#84
post #15

For years, the two things that most frustrated me to hear from product managers were "how hard would it be..." and "can't you just..." It took me quite a while to figure out why I had such a strong, visceral reaction to these phrases. Oh, man. When it comes to my natural reaction to this, the words 'strong and visceral' doesn't even do justice. It took me a really long time to understand why I had such a deep-seated…

A designer I worked with had lots of interesting stuff taped to his door, and rotated it regularly. My favorite was probably the following: “Can you just...” no.

Yeah, I find that attitude quite counterproductive in software development. I understand and agree with the argument that some “can’t you just”s are way more complicated than they are presented. But this kind of attitude, taken to its extreme (e.g., having that sort of half-joking sign on your door) is a roadblock to real progress, which often starts with a “hey, couldn’t we...”.

Re: One cost engineers and product managers don't consider

#85
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keyboard input on someone's phone is not something HN would be able to fix.

On my Android browser, I am usually typing with the box half-off-the-screen so I can't see what I've typed. On Android Chrome, font size for replies is incredibly inconsistent (some comments are huge and some are too small to read, and some are inbetween), and the textbox is still half-off-the-screen.

The text size issues is a bug in Chrome. Firefox for Android has a similar bug as well. For this reason alone I switched to Opera; it has its own bugs, but at least the text size is right.

Re: One cost engineers and product managers don't consider

#86
I've been pushing this idea for the past couple of years with clients, and when I give talks at conferences. The fact of the matter is that unless an organization knows what the carrying cost is for their features, and the effect in terms of complexity, they are flying blind.

In essence, it is Joel's Law of Leaky Abstractions at work. You can't manage a software project just in terms of a set of features you agree upon with business. The codebase is a key constraint that underlies all of those discussions and unless the effects of feature choice are on the table, you end up incurring radically different costs.

This isn't just about paying attention to technical debt. It's about having the discussion about whether it is worth targeting some features or not, taking the code into account - using it as a factor in business decisions.

http://www.confreaks.com/videos/717-rockymtnruby2011-opening...

http://michaelfeathers.typepad.com/michael_feathers_blog/201...

Re: One cost engineers and product managers don't consider

#87

In my experience, practically everyone agrees that software should be simple, but not everyone agrees on what simple is.

Simple is good, but the thing you really want is orthogonality - the ability to change one thing without affecting another. Generally, you get that by moving toward small, focused abstractions.

Re: One cost engineers and product managers don't consider

#88
post #15

For years, the two things that most frustrated me to hear from product managers were "how hard would it be..." and "can't you just..." It took me quite a while to figure out why I had such a strong, visceral reaction to these phrases. Oh, man. When it comes to my natural reaction to this, the words 'strong and visceral' doesn't even do justice. It took me a really long time to understand why I had such a deep-seated…

Your product managers need to understand enough about the quality of the different areas of your system to know what you are talking about when you say that something is easy or hard. It's best to make that a part of your regular discussions rather than something you pull out when there's a problem.

Draw them a picture and have the discussion - frequently.

Re: One cost engineers and product managers don't consider

#89
post #15

For years, the two things that most frustrated me to hear from product managers were "how hard would it be..." and "can't you just..." It took me quite a while to figure out why I had such a strong, visceral reaction to these phrases. Oh, man. When it comes to my natural reaction to this, the words 'strong and visceral' doesn't even do justice. It took me a really long time to understand why I had such a deep-seated…

"Namely, the business units are so disconnected from engineering they don't even realize the costs of what they're asking for, and the engineers are so disconnected that they reap zero benefit from whatever business goal is going to be accomplished by this."

I don't think it's just that they're disconnected - some of the orgs I've been in - they simply do not care, and never will, even if they completely understand the "costs". Why not? Because they don't have to pay it. It's not coming out of their budget, the 'costs' of higher support later on don't affect anyone who's making the decision right now, and damnit, we have to get this out now or we'll lose marketshare!

This is a toxic division, and seems to be more prevalent at companies that do not see themselves as software-based companies. Yammer is all tech - Yammer couldn't have existed 30 years ago, but plenty of more traditional companies still see software as something divorces from their main business.

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