Rand Paul: Big Brother Really Is Watching Us • Hacker News Board

Re: Rand Paul: Big Brother Really Is Watching Us

#81

Post by jes » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 2:23 PM UTC

mtgx wrote: post #61

u2328 wrote: post #4

Congratulations Obama, Feinstein. You've got me throwing in with Rand Paul. Though I could trust you with our civil liberties and privacy, but now I have to get behind the Ayn Rand loving libertarian on this. So be it; policy over party.

Ayn Rand hated libertarians. She didn't care much for all the "liberty" stuff. She mostly cared about low taxes and such, just like current Republicans who only care about low taxes and aiding their corporate friends, and only pay lip service to other liberties, but never follow through.

Your comment is breathtaking in its misrepresentation of what Ayn Rand actually cared about.

Re: Rand Paul: Big Brother Really Is Watching Us

#82

Post by nitrogen » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 11:20 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #32

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #3

"No one objects to balancing security against liberty. No one objects to seeking warrants for targeted monitoring based on probable cause. We've always done this. What is objectionable is a system in which government has unlimited and privileged access to the details of our private affairs, and citizens are simply supposed to trust that there won't be any abuse of power. This is an absurd expectation." I think one of…

> "No one objects to balancing security against liberty. No one objects to seeking warrants for targeted monitoring based on probable cause. We've always done this. What we've always done is get warrants for searches. No warrants were required to monitor someone (say, to have a cop follow them around). That is still the case. The FISA warrants allow monitoring. An Article III warrant is still necessary for a real sea…

What we've always done is get warrants for searches. No warrants were required to monitor someone (say, to have a cop follow them around).

At some point a difference of degree becomes one of kind. At some point, "monitoring" becomes searching.

Re: Rand Paul: Big Brother Really Is Watching Us

#83

Post by jeffdavis » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 5:56 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #73

jeffdavis wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't "broadcast" their information. They send it using point-to-point protocols to companies or people. The government is using special, secret authority to compel intermediaries or stewards of the information to turn it over en masse. If the government was just browsing Facebook or doing Google searches, nobody would complain. But they are using government powers to get the information, which means that it i…

You have this mistaken idea that google is a "steward" of your information. They're just someone who has your information (I.e. Your level of trust of them has no basis in any actual obligations they have with respect to your information--see facebooks ever shifting privacy policies for proof that they have no particular obligations). Its not a "search" of you to get information google keeps about you using governmen…

"You have this mistaken idea that google is a "steward" of your information."

They are -- you can question whether they are a good steward or not, but that is irrelevant as far as I can tell. The government didn't give them the option of keeping their users' information private.

"Its not a "search" of you to get information google keeps about you using government powers."

You assert that, but I don't see why. Clearly they were trying to find something in all of that data -- if trying to find something is not a search, what is?

"The framers did not contemplate that people would freely hand over private information to third parties who have no legal obligations to protect it."

It doesn't matter whether they have a legal obligation to protect it or not. They weren't given an option to protect it. If I write you a letter about a new political party platform, you have no legal obligation to keep that a secret. But do you think it's reasonable for the government to come in and demand all of the letters you've ever received, and then browse through them to see if someone might be starting a radical political movement?