Are coders worth it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are coders worth it?

#81

Post by calinet6 » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 1:40 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #50

Wonderful writing, I loved the way it circled several times around the central issue - the value of work, and I particularly liked this conclusion - much validation and reward in our society is driven by how much people are willing to pay you for your chosen work, and it's very hard to separate your self-worth and confidence from that. It's hard to reconcile when your values don't meet those of the people around you,…

This reminds me of this excellent poem, To Be of Use by Marge Piercy.

Cuts to the heart of it indeed: "The pitcher cries for water to carry and a person for work that is real."

http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2006/09...

Re: Are coders worth it?

#82

Post by gersonaya » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 1:42 PM UTC

First of all, the plumbing analogy can be made to many professions. From a certain point of view, engineers, doctors and lawyers are all plumbers too - it's just silly. Said that, I think the author bought the propaganda that want to make us (web dev) feel special and valuable. But hey: that in no way means that the whole world - or even our bosses - think that we are very special and intelligent people. That means they know we produce more and get more creative when in certain environments and being well treated: so they provide. It seemed to me that the author climbed out of the propaganda and now thinks that the whole industry is pointless. He is on the other extreme of the very motivated hipster developer. Don't buy it too: we are needed (now) and our jobs are valuable. So are teachers, cops and many other jobs.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#83

Post by rjzzleep » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 1:43 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #50

Wonderful writing, I loved the way it circled several times around the central issue - the value of work, and I particularly liked this conclusion - much validation and reward in our society is driven by how much people are willing to pay you for your chosen work, and it's very hard to separate your self-worth and confidence from that. It's hard to reconcile when your values don't meet those of the people around you,…

i was building developing new circuit testing algorithms 5 years ago, then i went to work for web startups because it pays way more.

but it's the sad fact of me outperforming my peers, in something that is essentially a big pile of junk and waste of time.

i'm now thinking about going to some neuroscience lab in the states to get a ph.d and build something meaningful again.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#84

Post by calinet6 » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 1:43 PM UTC

I think this is a good observation, that the interest in this market as a whole creates a dearth of really poor business ideas.

I think this is natural. But if you're in a startup incubator especially, you have to remember that those aren't the cream of the crop. They're people who will most likely fail, and the world will be better if they do (if the world wanted their product, and they're the right ones to build it, they would surely succeed).

I've sat in tech incubators and overheard direction discussions and software discussions, and just laughed. My overwhelming thought was simply "That is the worst idea I have ever heard in my life."

There were one or two companies that had good ideas, good people, and did well. They quickly moved out of startup kindergarten.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#85

Post by cuttooth » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 1:47 PM UTC

nissimk wrote: post #67

jacques_chester wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One more reason why moving to NYC or SV is in my future. I wouldn't feel weird at all.

Taxes and cost of living are very high. It doesn't go as far as you think. But there are a lot of beautiful people and culture.

Definitely agree with this -- the cost of living in NYC/SF is absurd, and there's not really much of a market elsewhere. A few choice cities (Austin, Chicago, maybe Atlanta?), but the entire market everywhere else is dead in the water by comparison. There are certainly jobs in those places, but it's going to be very scary if this bubble bursts again because a lot of people are going to be out of work, and I don't know if the smaller markets are going to grow enough to compensate for everyone going back home.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#86

Post by dsego » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 1:48 PM UTC

blunte wrote: post #24

You lost me at "In today's world, web developers have it all: money, perks, freedom, respect."

Yeah, but even in poorer countries there's always a demand for programmers, because there's a global market for software. A lot of my friends in other professions have been jobless or taking shitty part-time jobs. Even the ones that have a job are scared of losing it. Me? I had the audacity to quit my job just because I didn't like it enough. Other people in my country can only dream about it. And every month now I get one or two job offers, usually when a friend or former colleague recommends me.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#87

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 1:51 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #58

jacques_chester wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do think that without virtue there can be no value, if these are properly defined. This is an unproductive line of argument because either of us can just keep moving the goalposts until we're exhausted. Economic value clearly doesn't follow any "gut" virtue. Here's how an early moral theorist put it in a notoriously influential book: I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the ba…

You say this because we practically live in a post scarcity society. 500+ years ago people valued hard labor that brought food because food prevented starvation a vary real and horrible thing. Now, food is an evil that brings heart disease and obesity. Our desires for food and our well being are out of alignment. Value is now a function of are desires with little connection to our needs. Stealing from people was neve…

In post scarcity society things would be completely different, as the market value pretty much loses its meaning when everything you want to buy is free.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#88

Post by fieryeagle » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 1:52 PM UTC

I stopped reading about 1/2 way into the article. Brace yourself, the rant is coming...

Too many red flags springing from a delusional, narrow-minded view which looked no further than the bloated world of Valley startups. Hope mr. Author could cast his eye to some other corners of the world (no, even other parts of the States) and witness the bleak reality of a career called web development. Startups are just a small part, albeit the highlighted part of the system. What would you then call those developers who do back-breaking work, with a fraction of your starting salary, in a dead-end career path surrounded by an equally depressing environment? Low-class web developers? They are just like any other programmers out side, people who chose coding as a profession. Before all the perks, freedom and fun, this is a job. You work for your pay, period. I am sick and tired off seeing another article with a viewpoint through rose-tinted glass about values of coders. Enough is enough.

There are overpaid programmers and there are underpaid programmers, everywhere in the world. I probably fall into the underpaid camp, that's why I feel annoyed seeing way too many articles with BS about the cool $100k IT jobs for fresh graduates. Where I stay, it probably takes an above average fresh grad 5-6 years of doing good jobs while hopping around (startup/MNC/whatever) to come somewhere close to $100. The media just does not ever cover the average Joe programmer's career path, but this is the reality.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#89

Post by mk3 » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 2:06 PM UTC

This article made me laugh. As with .COM bubble many people jumped compsci ship and when it sunk left that ship. People who really admired it stayed, now the same story repeats itself. The same with this articles' author who's reaping benefits by learning ROR, and being patient enough to read Manuals and Stack Overflow.

P.S. Also I'm quite sick of people building things which are targeted against huge sale later. Build software/website/app which solves some kind of problem you are passionate about. Also people who are into programming just because it pays well.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#90

Post by anuraj » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 2:07 PM UTC

People with general skills like web development may not be worth much - You need to have advanced knowledge and ability to do large scale systems to be worth something as a technologist. Or you need to have business acumen to make it big.