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Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

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Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#81

Post by jimbokun »

rorymarinich wrote: post #65
Dalziel wrote: post #13

I'm sorry that's complete BS. Yes there are arrogant nerds and especially more on the internet where the 'geeky' have held sway for longer. But the simple fact is that as noonespecial pointed out, the sporty 'popular' will be more confident in a group of nerds than the other way around because there is no risk for them. The nerds can't make their day-to-day life in school a living hell.

What's the risk for nerds? When I developed the attitude I've got now, the one that accepts my faults and doesn't immediately get nasty, the change in people was almost immediate. Most people really would rather like you than dislike you, and the instant you start accepting them, they start liking you back. The people who are real jerks and tormentors drop it after it stops affecting you - and that doesn't mean your…

Here is the terrible, unvarnished secret behind much of my nerdy outcast existence in high school:

I generally found many of my peers boring as hell.

I tried going to a "get hammered in the middle of the woods" party (yes, it was that kind of high school), but I didn't drink, and no one was doing anything especially interesting, or saying anything especially interesting, and it was boring as hell, but everyone else being inebriated were oblivious to the dumbfounding level of boredom surrounding them, making it all the more frustrating.

So, I guess it really comes down to my not wanting to drink that resulted in my anti-social nerdiness. It was not until college that I found actually interesting people doing actually interesting and fun activities, without benefit of mind altering substances.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#82

Post by chairface »

rorymarinich wrote: post #77
chairface wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> maybe it wasn't completely the jock's (or whomever's) fault that the nerds were unpopular. I can agree with this to a point - by the time high school rolls around, yeah, the unpopular kids probably have adopted a set of behaviors that contributes to them being unpopular. However, those behaviors are probably defenses developed against some early damaging experiences. And who is responsible for those experiences? In…

To be completely honest, if I were to go back to elementary school and look at when I first started being divided from other kids, I'm almost certain it would have begun with me being an arrogant brat because of my intelligence. When you're bright, it's too tempting to try and rise above teasing by claiming superintelligence. I'm not saying that arrogance is a bad thing, but I feel that people who are persecuted for…

> I feel that people who are persecuted for arrogance should at least admit that their own attitude is partly at fault

Again with this theory. Should battered wives admit that they are partially at fault because they annoyed their husbands? Should rape victims admit that they are partially at fault because they led a guy on? People are responsible for _their own actions_. No more, no less. If this means that the people you're talking about are guilty for being arrogant and annoying, then fine. I have no problem with that. But they are not responsible for the crimes committed by others.

> my solution to this problem would be twofold.

I think it's funny that you think you can solve this problem, and that we can all live in egalitarian bliss.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#83

Post by rorymarinich »

jimbokun wrote: post #73
rorymarinich wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent all my time on computers, I played Dungeons & Dragons. I spent all my time up until I was about 15 being shat on, and being incredibly angry because I thought I was being persecuted for my intelligence. Then, in my sophomore year, I took a drama class, realized that people didn't care what kind of person I was as long as I was an interesting person who wasn't too obnoxious, and began to move away from my nerd…

I just want to know how you can hold up the "Rails community" as a positive example of socially well adjusted people, when their acknowledged leader just explicitly approved of a presentation that would obviously result in complaints of sexual harassment in any normal workplace setting (and did result in such a complaint, although given in an almost apologetic tone because she knew that her complaints would not be we…

Because the Rails community understands that they are not a community for any other reason other than Rails.

Do I approve of nudity in a presentation? No. But at the same time, even if I found it offensive, I wouldn't turn it into a huge argument and the focal point of a rant against a community.

I'm really, really in the minority with this statement, but I find it very easy to deal with intolerant people. I have friends who are almost certainly racist. A lot of the people I know are casually homophobic. I think that's sickening, but I don't turn that into a rallying point of a campaign. The attitude that I was taught as a kid was that the best way to change things is to lead by example.

Now, being upset over using nude women to draw attention, that makes sense. Voicing displeasure makes sense. But there's a line between that and turning that issue into one that directly attacks the community. When you're part of a community about coding, you'd best be focused on the code. If you don't like DHH, you ignore him. If you don't like Obie Fernandez, you ignore him. The language is what matters, and it's a large enough language that if you know what you're doing, you can find people who are willing to help.

Now, look at the attitude of the Rails community towards beginners: they are incredibly kind and cool and open about it all. (This extends to what parts of the Ruby community I've interacted with.) If you don't know a thing about programming, they'll help you, and they usually come across not as nerds but as socially normal people. I don't know if they really are, but their leaders certainly are: they have their priorities straight. I've never been party to a group of programmers that seemed as normal as the Ruby bunch.

So when DHH applauds the presentation, the message he's giving isn't "RoR approves of this." He's just saying this as a leader. He's saying this as DHH, a rude dude who loves to be crude. The fact that he's the leader is entirely apart from the fact that he's saying this. That's why he's so interesting to read. That's why 37signals is such a good blog. It doesn't matter that they're rich and successful and in charge of stuff: they're a good blog because they write good posts, and all that other stuff is an aside. Meanwhile, in the rest of the programming world people are all-too-quick to judge a person as a single, solid entity. Steve Jobs is evil because iTunes has DRM. Bill Gates is stupid because Windows is ugly. Jason Fried is a jackass who never does work because other people waste their time reading SvN archives. Ruby on Rails is bad because their developers are immature. It's the same approach of solidarity that leads nerds to decide all jocks are stupid, all different people are meaningless, and anything that looks nice can't be nice because it's coming from non-nerds.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#84

Post by banned_man_2_0 »

quoderat wrote: post #3

This writer is really clueless as to what high school is like for those on the bottom of the heap -- I mean, really, no idea at all. For that reason, it's hard to listen to what else he has to say, no matter how relevant or (potentially) awesome. Obvious that he's never been the low end of the totem pole. It may be different now, but when I was in high school, geeks and nerds got shit on by every group -- the jocks,…

I don't think nerds get shit on by "everyone". On the contrary, it's only a small percentage of the population who are driven by envious hatred to such an extent as to be mean-- maybe 20%. Most of those envy the popular kids (who can defend themselves) and only a quarter of them have envy related to intelligence per se. So it's only 5%. The problem is that when you have 5% converging on the smartest 1%, you still have a 5-to-1 mobbing. The other 94%, by and large, stand by and watch without doing anything; this is the worst thing that can be said about them.

It's not the stereotypical "dumb jocks" who do the mobbing. It's the reasonably smart (115-125 IQ) kids who defined themselves by their intelligence, only to find out that there were people significantly smarter than them. If they had defined themselves by their athletic ability instead, they'd leave the nerds alone but develop a Tonya Harding complex toward their athletic superiors (and, actually, young athletes outside of "cool" sports like football and basketball are often harassed, much like nerds, for being "overdedicated" to their sport).

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#85

Post by yef »

rorymarinich wrote: post #62
yef wrote: post #44

I'm frustrated that the #2 link on Hacker News right now is a rambling rehash of How To Win Friends and Influence People, the first book listed here: http://ycombinator.com/lib.html

Is that what HTWFAIP is about? I've never read it. (Also: is it a good read, or is it overrated?) (Also also: I agree. This should not be here.)

I'd recommend it as a general life-skills sort of book, which can also be applied toward career success in sales or management. If you don't want to read it, just find the summary online, apply it, and see if your life changes. It's harder to implement than it sounds, at least in my experience.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#86

Post by TheAmazingIdiot »

jeffesp wrote: post #47
sachmanb wrote: post #15

seems as if he has a problem with introverts

Him and the rest of our society. Edit: Not to seem too negative, but I have just run into this attitude in most people that aren't introverts. There are advantages and disadvantages to both sides of that coin, but I feel like the introvert side gets labeled as the bad one.

I had a good talk about introvert/extrovert differences with my philosophy professor. He explained that different cultures had differences in which one was perceived better.

In places like the US, extroversion is accepted and liked. However, in places like Germany, introversion is well respected and as an equal to extroversion.

I asked why and he said that he really didn't know. It's just the difference in culture.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#87

Post by chairface »

rorymarinich wrote: post #61
chairface wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the world that I know. I write about it. Except you didn't limit yourself to that. You wrote about the world that everyone experiences, and essentially told a bunch of other people that they are wrong about their own experiences. > Are you saying that a young, bright 18-year-old shouldn't write at all because he knows that most of what he says is wrong? I'm saying that anyone, regardless of age or intellige…

You wrote about the world that everyone experiences, and essentially told a bunch of other people that they are wrong about their own experiences. Is it wrong to say that when they are? I don't know everything. I only know my specific narrow field. But I do know that everybody I know who is actually unpopular - that is to say, not somebody who lacks friends due to lack of social skills, but somebody who people active…

> Is it wrong to say that when they are?

No. But your essay reads like they _all_ are.

> But everybody does that.

That's no excuse.

> Martyr?

Yes. Here's another example: "I'm saying that I have a right to write what I think is right". Nobody ever tried to take that right away from you, least of all me. All I did was say that you were wrong, but you have decided to carry on like I am persecuting you by attempting to take away your rights. Martyr.

> But the criticism against me for writing this piece in the first place offends me, and I don't think I'm being an asshole martyr for saying that.

Again, I never called you an asshole or criticized you as a person, as opposed to something specific that you said. Now you're being a martyr in response to me saying that you are writing with a martyr mentality.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#88

Post by jimbokun »

rorymarinich wrote: post #61
chairface wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the world that I know. I write about it. Except you didn't limit yourself to that. You wrote about the world that everyone experiences, and essentially told a bunch of other people that they are wrong about their own experiences. > Are you saying that a young, bright 18-year-old shouldn't write at all because he knows that most of what he says is wrong? I'm saying that anyone, regardless of age or intellige…

You wrote about the world that everyone experiences, and essentially told a bunch of other people that they are wrong about their own experiences. Is it wrong to say that when they are? I don't know everything. I only know my specific narrow field. But I do know that everybody I know who is actually unpopular - that is to say, not somebody who lacks friends due to lack of social skills, but somebody who people active…

"Paul Graham does that in his essays."

Paul writes brilliant essays, but I find that if he has a weakness as an essayist, it is probably in over generalization. Many of his essays have pretty sweeping generalizations, but a dearth of data justifying them. His brilliance is that he usually overcomes this by appealing to his reader's intuitions, and it usually works. But there are times when I find myself wondering if he is just extrapolating from his own experience to a larger scale than is warranted.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#89

Post by dkarl »

Psyonic wrote: post #72
tlrobinson wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bit is particularly appropriate: Hell, programmers argue over web browsers. There is an elitist and closed-off system among hardcore coders that says certain things are better than others, usually for no reason, often for bad reasons.

Right.... as opposed to the rest of the population arguing over which (baseball team, basketball team, hockey team, football team, soccer team, nascar driver, music group, shoe label, clothing label) is better, which while I guess isn't "elitist and closed-off" definitely says certain things are better than others, usually for no reason, and often for bad reasons. Or in other words, so-called nerds have different int…

Everybody hates dorks who insist on talking about music labels or shoe brands to people who don't want to, but those types are pretty rare. Tech and gaming geeks are massively overrepresented here, and sports geeks to a lesser extent. When one guy goes on and on about his special interest to one or more people who are obviously not interested, but he doesn't get it, it's usually about technology, computer games, or sports.

Despite the massive popular appeal of celebrities and fashion, I've never been stuck in a one-on-one conversation with somebody who couldn't figure out that those topics bored me. I've been stranded in group conversations as the lone person who wasn't interested, but that's entirely different. People even figure out pretty quickly that I don't know anything about "Lost" despite how improbably that is. You have to give "normal" people credit for being much, much better than the average computer nerd when it comes to talking your ear off about stuff you don't care about.

(I guess there's another stereotypical dork: the middle-aged businessman who only know how to talk to other middle-aged businessmen, and who talks obsessively about cars, golf, or politics. I only encounter him at weddings, but you entrepreneurial types might run into him more often.)

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#90

Post by rorymarinich »

chairface wrote: post #82
rorymarinich wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be completely honest, if I were to go back to elementary school and look at when I first started being divided from other kids, I'm almost certain it would have begun with me being an arrogant brat because of my intelligence. When you're bright, it's too tempting to try and rise above teasing by claiming superintelligence. I'm not saying that arrogance is a bad thing, but I feel that people who are persecuted for…

> I feel that people who are persecuted for arrogance should at least admit that their own attitude is partly at fault Again with this theory. Should battered wives admit that they are partially at fault because they annoyed their husbands? Should rape victims admit that they are partially at fault because they led a guy on? People are responsible for _their own actions_. No more, no less. If this means that the peop…

I think it's funny that you think you can solve this problem, and that we can all live in egalitarian bliss.

You know that you're the reason I wrote this article, right? This is exactly the HN attitude that made me freeze my main account away. People who take things that other people say and extend them to drastic proportions just so they can be dicks about it.

No, we're not going to have egalitarian bliss. We're human beings. We have flaws. Those flaws won't go away. My "solution" is one that I think would work better than the endless "be diverse" speeches kids get. I think that it might make a lot of smart people a lot happier. It won't fix everything, but it might at least help. But no, you won't address the ideas I put forth. You'll nitpick. You'll be an absolute snot just so that you can gain the upper hand in an argument. And so you might reach a point where I and people like me get tired of your bullshit and walk away, and then you'll declare yourself the victor because you were the last person to make a post in my comment thread, but all you're doing is making the person on the other side want to punch yourself in the face. In a microcosm, that's my essay: you're probably not a stupid person, but you're deliberately avoiding facts to paint a one-sided portrayal of what I'm saying, and it's pissing me off. If we were having this argument in real life and I was a more naturally violent person, I'd probably hit you, and then in your eyes I'd become the bully and you wouldn't be guilty of anything. That's the problem here, and it's incredibly common amongst programmers, and it sucks.

I have no problem with that. But they are not responsible for the crimes committed by others.

They're interconnected. You're like the American attitude after 9/11 that terrorists were wholly evil Satanic creatures with no motive. I'm arguing back and saying that the people on the other side are doing bad things, but that that's a separate issue from what I'm talking about. If you're guilty about being arrogant and annoying, then when you get teased and beaten up it's not causeless. You caused this. And the other side is more at fault then you are, but don't act like you're a saint.

Should battered wives admit that they are partially at fault because they annoyed their husbands?

If you get beaten and do nothing about it, it's your fault that it goes on. See, two sides of the same struggle can both be guilty. The husband is more at fault, but if the battered wife acts like there's nothing she can do then she's to blame for it going on.

Same with rape. If you get raped and do nothing about it, you're letting the other guy get away. The other guy isn't innocent. This isn't a blame game where it's the victim's fault entirely. But the victim does not exist in a vacuum, and the fact that the problem still exists suggests that in some way the victim is complicit about the problem.

Is McDonald's to blame for making people fat? Partly. But they exist to provide something for people who are asking for it. Fat people are to blame for their being fat. Perhaps not entirely 100% to blame, but they can stop themselves, and they're not, and so it's partly their fault.

One day I might write something about how much bullies suck, but other people are already doing this. I don't like being generic. So I thought I would write a little thing about how nerds are often partially to blame for their oppression, and that they refuse to take responsibility for themselves, not expecting anybody to submit it to a place where people like you would get to spray their spittle around without ever once addressing what I'm saying.

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