Live data from Hacker News

Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

techcrunch.com

81–90 of 105 posts

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Being an FBI agent is a very honorable and well-respected profession" Unless you are doing this: http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2011/01/secret_government... It is not as though this is some kind of new, unprecedented behavior either: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/31/mlk.fbi.conspiracy/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover So let's say a young man is thinking about joining the FBI; he wants to do good fo…

You can always quit if your morale compass is that damn good.

That's exactly the point. That happens, now who is left running the show?

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#82

I think people have the FBIs motivations misunderstood. And I don't mean in some evil conspiracy theory sort of way, but in one that is pretty consistent with their mission. Their main mission nowadays is to stop terrorism, etc... I I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations. The article theorizes that people with data to hide will use enc…

> I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations.

I don't doubt that FBI believe that total surveillance and complete control over every move that their citizen do is useful to data mine. However, the article question such logic because of the social impact that total surveillance has on society, criminals and innocents.

And this article is not alone on that aspect. The Swedish secret police had similar objections when the military suggested introducing such surveillance in Sweden. Their primary objection was that ubiquitous surveillance pushed criminals and innocents alike to darknets and encryption, which would then make their job harder (through, after they got a slice of the surveillance pie, they have now become very silent on the subject). I guess the police would have similar objection, however they are also getting a slice soon.

In the mean time, we can actually see in real-time the effects on society, like hot-lines being called less, people avoiding calling priest/lawyer and so on. Germany has some direct statistics since they introduced the surveillance several years before Sweden. I guess we will have to wait for hot-lines being added to tor hidden services before people feel comfortable again with talking with a stranger about suspected child abuses or domestic abuse. Criminals will as suggested move to more encrypted routes. Botnet distributors can get an increased slice in facilitating secure communication, and the military, secret police, and to a degree, the regular police can catch those too slow to follow the technology change.

Is this a dumb, evil, or just incompetent change to society?

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#83
post #69

I say all of the above. There's basically one reason to work for law enforcement: Authority and its slutty sister, Power. People who are attracted to these things are susceptible to logic failures in pursuit of their interest in exerting Authority and Power.

Authority and power are not inherently evil, nor is the desire for authority or power. Would you like the authority and power to prevent women from being raped? Would you like the power to vote to implement laws equalizing 'rights', such as same-sex marriages?

Power may be a necessary evil, but it's still evil. It robs you of empathy, because putting yourself in the shoes of every person affected by your decisions is just too emotionally taxing. And lack of empathy is the root of all evil.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#84
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I am not. I can't protect them so I wouldn't try to become the leader of the FBI. I also can't do surgery but if I come in to have some work done on my hand and leave with a foot chopped of I am going to sue the doctor.

Exactly. The FBI was unable to perform their job properly. Then they ask the public for help. What, the bomber didn't leave behind any Facebook conversations to track? Boo hoo.

Exactly, the US has DHS, FBI, CIA and a dozen other agencies.

Letting anything through should simply result in the leaders going to the electric chair.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#85

I think people have the FBIs motivations misunderstood. And I don't mean in some evil conspiracy theory sort of way, but in one that is pretty consistent with their mission. Their main mission nowadays is to stop terrorism, etc... I I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations. The article theorizes that people with data to hide will use enc…

So your choice is dumb, then? Meaning they understand only "their mission" and nothing else.

I mean, sure, an organization with Mission X can go about that mission in variety of ways. It's like the sci-fi movies about a God-like-AI "solving" society's problems. Stop crime in New York City? Easy, just encase every resident in three inches of plastic? Makes sense "from their point of view".

And the fact is that the deaths and mayhem from terrorism haven't exceed deaths and mayhem from many other sources. Thus preempting everything to fight terrorism is not actually logical for us as a society and has not, so far, been particularly positive in its effects.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#86
post #6

Are there any video chat clients with end-to-end encryption? I was trying to do this by piping the output of my webcam to openssl and then to netcat, which sends the packets to a publicly addressable server (Amazon instance) that relays the encrypted packets to another computer behind a firewall, that decrypts the video stream and plays it in MPlayer. It works, but the latency is about 10 seconds. To reduce the laten…

I keep expecting to see more research into side channel attacks for encrypted video. A fair amount of work has been done for similar attacks on audio streams with VBR codecs. Secure encrypted voice requires using a codec in CBR mode, but that's not really possible for video. It's perhaps likely that video is too complex to leak anything usable through that type of side channel, but I haven't seen much discussion either way.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Most of us here are privacy advocates, and I think society needs our voice. However, we're only one side of the coin. Imagine a world where every phone call, email, chat, forum post, etc is fully anonymous or indecipherable to law enforcement. And imagine your loved one has been abducted and law enforcement has no tools for finding those responsible. There are many kinds of dystopias. Big Brother is one. Rule by…

Rule by competing gangs is not a dystopia, it's the natural state that we were born into as animals and that we'be been living under for most of our history. We live largely under rule by competing gangs to the present day and are used to that. We prefer that to Big Brother. That's why the Berlin wall was built to keep people _inside_ the GDR and not the other way around.

> Rule by competing gangs is not a dystopia, it's the natural state that we were born into as animals and that we'be been living under for most of our history.

Which doesn't mean it's not a dystopia.

> We live largely under rule by competing gangs

No, not for any useful definition of the word 'gang'.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#88

I think people have the FBIs motivations misunderstood. And I don't mean in some evil conspiracy theory sort of way, but in one that is pretty consistent with their mission. Their main mission nowadays is to stop terrorism, etc... I I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations. The article theorizes that people with data to hide will use enc…

Yes. Most of us here are privacy advocates, and I think society needs our voice. However, we're only one side of the coin. Imagine a world where every phone call, email, chat, forum post, etc is fully anonymous or indecipherable to law enforcement. And imagine your loved one has been abducted and law enforcement has no tools for finding those responsible. There are many kinds of dystopias. Big Brother is one. Rule by…

Abduction should be solved by physical surveillance.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#89
Cant the companies that would be affected just split off the operational side of the business to be outside of US jurisdiction, you know like some do to avoid paying tax (not to grossly over-simplify the issues...)? You know facebook could still exist as a US corporation encompassing the intellectual side of the company but create and icelandic company that actually deploys the servers and processes the data. Or something.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#90

I think people have the FBIs motivations misunderstood. And I don't mean in some evil conspiracy theory sort of way, but in one that is pretty consistent with their mission. Their main mission nowadays is to stop terrorism, etc... I I think that when they look at this rationally they believe are better served by being able to access these conversations. The article theorizes that people with data to hide will use enc…

So your choice is dumb, then? Meaning they understand only "their mission" and nothing else. I mean, sure, an organization with Mission X can go about that mission in variety of ways. It's like the sci-fi movies about a God-like-AI "solving" society's problems. Stop crime in New York City? Easy, just encase every resident in three inches of plastic? Makes sense "from their point of view". And the fact is that the dea…

Are defense attorneys dumb for taking on the cases of guilty defendants? Having a specific mission is often helpful, and doesn't preclude having other systems to provide an appropriate balance.
Post reply on HN