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Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

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Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#81

Post by pud »

marshray wrote: post #24

This situation is actually very simple, don't let it feel overcomplicated: Tell them you need an actual salary and actual health insurance in the next 30 days. If the venture can pay you to keep at it, that's great. Otherwise you'll have to start looking around for a real job in a couple of weeks. Even the most brick-and-mortar type of businessperson will completely understand this. Stick to your schedule. It will ei…

Disagree.

If you've truly lost faith in the founders and business -- which you have -- you should leave now & cut your losses. It's not going to work out, regardless of salary.

As for how to make money after you leave -- get a job or find consulting work. Then jump back into starting a business when you're ready again.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#82

Post by hobs »

This may be among the most stressful times in your life up to this point. I would take almost all the advice in the thread, but just look at it from an outsiders perspective, and while that may not calm you, know that it will BE you soon enough. The stressful times seem terrible, but as you stated, you learned a ton.

I have had my share of rueful experiences on the job or off, and the anxiety and stress regarding it slip away when you start making decisions and GETTING OUT OF THERE!

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#83

Post by dsuth »

Udo wrote: post #71
seivan wrote: post #27

Never ever ever EVER take non-science/engineer as co-founders. EVER. I'm actually inclined to say not to hire either until you're profitable. Unless it's necessary by evil, like lawyers. And by non-science, also include cultural science or political science.

You're being downvoted but I can definitely see where you're coming from. In the case of the OP, those two family member seem to actually exploit him pretty heavily, or at least they're not placing any actual value on him. I think a case could be made that non-technical co-founders are often prone to this kind of behavior, while the technical founder is slaving away and being called "just our IT guy". For most online…

That's a bad experience, but it could easily go the other way, eg. a technical person taking advantage of a non-technical founder. The key is trust, regardless of the personalities involved. Trust, but validate as the saying goes.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#84

Post by bcoates »

The difference between a business and a social club is making payroll. Your organization has not become a business until it does so; as soon as it fails to make payroll, it is an ex-business. This applies even to a one-person operation, where the rule is called "Pay Yourself First".

If you have to invest your own cash to pay your living expenses, then do so up front, in a planned, structured amount, get equity for it, and pay your salary out of that fund.

If you aren't paying yourself or getting paid, you aren't working at a failed business, you're unemployed at a non-business. This makes your decision to stay and restructure or bail a practical rather than emotional one: is making your own payroll until things might work out at all viable financially? Will it make you do things you don't want to, or can't afford to, do?

This has nothing to do with not trusting your family; I grew up with parents who ran their own business, and religiously maintained separate business and family accounts, paying themselves (and later, me and other non-family employees) salaries. I've seen the results of small partnerships and family businesses that didn't do this; it isn't pretty even when it works.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#85

Post by dacilselig »

Whenever in doubt of what to do always suggest to break the problem down. You are going through a lot right now so it's difficult to keep a clear head when making a decision. Take the time to go through the pro and con of leaving or staying and then see which one is more important to you. Also consider that psychologically when humans invest a Lot of time and energy in anything it is difficult to let go (from relationships to startup). So don't allow it to be the only reason to stay.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#86

Post by raylu »

Cogito wrote: post #78
djbender wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now. Look up Sunk Cost Fallacy. Also this related episode of Freakonomics is great: http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/09/30/new-freakonomics-radi...

It's easy to presume that sunk costs should have no weight when considering the relative value of different options. For many endeavours a certain amount of investment is required before returns are seen - investments in time and money in particular. For this reason there is almost always a cost to be considered switching between endeavours. So, while I agree that throwing good money after bad is a silly thing to do,…

I think you misunderstand sunk cost. Sunk cost basically just says to always employ a purely-forward-looking strategy when evaluating costs and benefits.

> vs how much some other endeavour will take to become profitable AND how much it will cost to switch.

Wait, what are these two costs? Aren't they the same? Where did the cost of switching come from?

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#87

Post by Clanan »

You're a part of a business that's failing. Don't get sucked into the dangerous mentality that what you're doing is something -more- than that - it's not. Startups are just small businesses. If yours is failing, then make a business decision and get out. What you've done up to this point is a Sunk Cost. You can't get it back, so let it go. Your business isn't working and the co-owners can't hack it. So what are you still doing there?

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#88

Post by desireco42 »

marshray wrote: post #24

This situation is actually very simple, don't let it feel overcomplicated: Tell them you need an actual salary and actual health insurance in the next 30 days. If the venture can pay you to keep at it, that's great. Otherwise you'll have to start looking around for a real job in a couple of weeks. Even the most brick-and-mortar type of businessperson will completely understand this. Stick to your schedule. It will ei…

I believe this is excellent advice you got here. Nothing much to add but that you take your girlfriend and go somewhere for at least a week or so, to clear your mind. Go to some national park or something like that where you would be disconnected, talk to her and not just about you, hear what she is seeing and thinking.

I am pretty certain when you come back you would know much better what to do.

Re: Ask HN: I'm lost. Please help

#90

Post by notforreal »

(Fake account to protect those involved.)

I was very recently in your position. My advice to you:

Get the f* out... NOW!

If I had to guess, you were probably never that impressed/excited by your co-founders to begin with. But you did it because the business-case made sense. That's what I did, anyways, and it was one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made.

If you think your co-founders are idiots, then it's over. If your experience is anything like mine, then not only are these guys not pulling their weight, but they probably have a lot of half-cocked ideas that you have to fight them on, they go off doing things that make no business sense, and have made you feel embarrassed for them (and your company) on more than one occasion.

In my case, I considered leaving my startup at the 15 month mark (and even before that), but hung around some more trying to make things work with co-founders who weren't doing their part. I had a very candid talk with them (not the first one either), laid out the things that needed to happen for me to keep going within what time frame, and everyone agreed.

Well, I did my part. They didn't. I knew, deep down, that they wouldn't hold up their end. If they were the type to do their part, they would've done it a long time ago. Denial is what kept me going for that last push, and it was a total waste of time and effort.

So I left. The co-founders balked, then got angry, then tried to get me to come back. I did not waiver. You shouldn't either.

The co-founders got over it. We worked out an agreement. We're still friends and things are fine. It will be fine for you too.

Now that I'm out, I'm watching their ship sink faster than ever. And I'm so glad that I'm not on it.

Hope my story helped you in some way. It was therapeutic for me. :) Now, get yourself out of there!

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