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Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

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Re: Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

#81

Post by wintersFright »

dualogy wrote: post #75
wintersFright wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually 39 years. The USD was a token for gold until Nixon shock.

Yeah but that I define as "monetary metal for Central Bank settlements" gold, not "day-to-day normal-people transactional currency". Was it still "money" / monetary after 33? Certainly, until '71 (42 years ago, not 39). But "currency" (circulating to facilitate/lubricate individual micro rather than macro exchange&trade)? Hardly ;) Also not "legal tender" -- as in, for courts enforcing contract liabilities or tax pay…

Interesting point. Wouldn't an individual Frenchman see a USD as a token for metal until the shock? And until the shock, national currencies circulated at a fixed exchange with the USD - thereby his own currency was effectively gold backed?

At a national level, yes the Central Banks settled in gold, but that was after the micro transactions bubbled up to be settled from the commercial banks and then eventually cleared at the Central Bank level (Talking on the edges of my understanding here - just trying to see if the reality for an individual level was the currency was gold backed until 71).

Re: Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

#82

Post by XorNot »

conanbatt wrote: post #79
XorNot wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly. What long term destabilizing factors would make people abandon the USD - the currency of the current global military hegemon, if nothing else?

rampant inflation.

You mean that 2-4% range with the Fed is legally mandated to keep it in, and has been wildly successful in doing so for the past 40 years?

Re: Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

#83

Post by wintersFright »

XorNot wrote: post #77
wintersFright wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree BTC is way too unstable but being the the best nag in the glue factory doesn't mean much. USD collapse would certainly be a far reaching global event but that doesn't mean it will not happen. I'm sure all prior entities with reserve status also thought their position unasailable. http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/im... Global support for it is waning. China is doing direct currency swap…

Plenty of currencies exist without being de facto global currencies and survive just fine. The question is what makes the USD likely to collapse as a currency altogether - rather then simply behave more like the normal internal currency of a sovereign nation? People don't go around predicting the decline and fall of the Australian dollar for example.

The USD is the global reserve - therefore it is needed in vastly greater quantities to lubricate global trade than would otherwise be needed internally. To buy oil, France needs to export to the US in order to obtain USD to purchase off oil off Saudi Arabia. The US gets to print off (and spend) a lot of currency that would have otherwise caused inflation domestically but instead is mopped up by the need for global trade lubrication. Central Banks also absorb USD for reserves - for now. The USGovt is now addicted to its budget deficit that has been enabled by this reserve status but it gives the USA an exhorbitant privelige against other nations - this is starting to unwind - CB's no longer trust the debt of other sovereigns. There is a glut of USD in existence - vulnerable to a change in other nations willingness to hold them. The military is powered by oil and goods and services bought on USD. The USD enables the military, not the other way around.

Re: Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

#84

Post by dualogy »

wintersFright wrote: post #81
dualogy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but that I define as "monetary metal for Central Bank settlements" gold, not "day-to-day normal-people transactional currency". Was it still "money" / monetary after 33? Certainly, until '71 (42 years ago, not 39). But "currency" (circulating to facilitate/lubricate individual micro rather than macro exchange&trade)? Hardly ;) Also not "legal tender" -- as in, for courts enforcing contract liabilities or tax pay…

Interesting point. Wouldn't an individual Frenchman see a USD as a token for metal until the shock? And until the shock, national currencies circulated at a fixed exchange with the USD - thereby his own currency was effectively gold backed? At a national level, yes the Central Banks settled in gold, but that was after the micro transactions bubbled up to be settled from the commercial banks and then eventually cleare…

> And until the shock, national currencies circulated at a fixed exchange with the USD - thereby his own currency was effectively gold backed?

Yes, "effectively gold-backed" until the first guy came along to openly demand an actual physical (rather than "potential") exchange of USD reserves for real ounces, in size, from the US. Bam, Nixon shock. Essentially "caused" by one "individual Frenchman" (de Gaulle) testing whether the system can in fact, in size and in physical actuality consistently deliver what it promised to the world.

Re: Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

#85

Post by dualogy »

XorNot wrote: post #76
jacquesm wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea the USD is going to collapse is farcical. It would be a global catastrophe of a scale not yet seen, but also not threatened. In the short term you are probably right. In the long term you are almost certainly wrong.

Hardly. What long term destabilizing factors would make people abandon the USD - the currency of the current global military hegemon, if nothing else?

Did I hear "global military hegemon"? Try paying your soldiers far from home in a dying currency, go for it! ;D

(Not making a case for "collapse gonna happen", just saying "if, then your military's worth sinks with your currency"...)

Re: Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

#86

Post by dualogy »

XorNot wrote: post #69
fleitz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the USD pops then BTC may be less deflationary. The bubble did not pop because mortgages were paid back. Loans are generally repaid in currency, paying back a loan creates even more currency as the additional currency created by the interest becomes an asset against which loans can be issued.

The idea the USD is going to collapse is farcical. It would be a global catastrophe of a scale not yet seen, but also not threatened. Meanwhile, BTC gains and loses 50 - 80% of its value in a single day. I wonder which is more stable .

> It would be a global catastrophe of a scale not yet seen, but also not threatened

It would have been in the 70s -- which is why USD support has remained despite the Nixon shock for a few more decades. By now, most central banks and governments are increasingly, dare I say "prepared" or slowly preparing for the possibility without it impacting their economies or trade too badly. Nobody wants to see the USD fail or die --- but day-to-day economic / monetary policies on US soil should become less and less of a rest-of-the-world economic worry, concern or impact compared to previously.

Now, the last remaining problem is savings of millions tied up in USD promises worldwide. Still a big problem, and rest assured the USD will continue to get "support" to the proportion that these savings haven't "migrated" over to "something else" yet.

Anyway, one day all these notes the US has been "exporting" globally for many years will come home one way or the other. Hope the new cash supplies won't, ahem, "overwhelm" a struggling domestic economy at that time, shall we?

Re: Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

#87

Post by maxerickson »

XorNot wrote: post #82
conanbatt wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

rampant inflation.

You mean that 2-4% range with the Fed is legally mandated to keep it in, and has been wildly successful in doing so for the past 40 years?

How are you fitting the 1970s into that statement?

Re: Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

#88

Post by dualogy »

XorNot wrote: post #77
wintersFright wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree BTC is way too unstable but being the the best nag in the glue factory doesn't mean much. USD collapse would certainly be a far reaching global event but that doesn't mean it will not happen. I'm sure all prior entities with reserve status also thought their position unasailable. http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/im... Global support for it is waning. China is doing direct currency swap…

Plenty of currencies exist without being de facto global currencies and survive just fine. The question is what makes the USD likely to collapse as a currency altogether - rather then simply behave more like the normal internal currency of a sovereign nation? People don't go around predicting the decline and fall of the Australian dollar for example.

> Plenty of currencies exist without being de facto global currencies and survive just fine. The question is what makes the USD likely to collapse as a currency altogether

Bingo! You got it! The USD is not going anywhere or collapsing. The global "reserve asset" named dollar however seems to be slowly on its way out.

Fair game right?

Problem is, there's a wave of trillions global dollars that will now seek to "go home". Inflation hasn't happened yet when fresh currency notes are "exported" (exchanged for real goods from the world) immediately. But those USD, whether in bonds or treasuries or bank deposits or hard cash, will seek to come back to their native soil when global savings or trades no longer desire them as they used to. Wait for it! The money has already been "printed", then "kept in custody" all over the globe for some amount of time (circulating at times, finding a good temporary residence for some other times), but still waiting to go back to their permanent home, to circulating with ever-increasing velocity..

Re: Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

#89

Post by funtober »

sjtgraham wrote: post #31
funtober wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The options are to sue them in their foreign country or sue them in the United States. If you sue them in the US, you face jurisdictional issues (do they have sufficient contacts in the US to make a lawsuit here fair?) as well as judgment recognition issues (you would probably have to attach the damage award to a contract they have with someone in the US to collect if the foreign country court system doesn't recogniz…

Thanks for your answer. I have two questions if you don't mind: - Are reciprocal judgements possible in a lawsuit such as this hypothetical example? - What is to stop the defendent from liquidating and reappearing as a new legal entity?

Reciprocal judgments: I'm not perfectly clear what you mean by reciprocal judgment. I think that you'll find this helpful on the matter, though: http://travel.state.gov/law/judicial/judicial_691.html

Liquidation: Corporate governance issues are a matter of the country where the defendant is organized. So if the law there allows them to do it, they can. I'm less familiar with the process of chasing the money. Trying to remember back to law school here: In the US, the debt doesn't just disappear. It would either attach to the old entity (which would have to be paid a fair price for the acquisition of its assets) or the new entity (which acquired its assets and liabilities per the acquisition agreement). So if it has no assets to begin with, it's possible. If it has real assets, it's more difficult to do. Not impossible, just more difficult.

Re: Bitcoin ASIC Miner from BFL, finally

#90

Post by MaysonL »

drawkbox wrote: post #64
Too wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference with shovels is you need to be there and shovel yourself. Here if you have tool, you just plug it in and it does all the work for you.

There is energy expended during the process though. I imagine if this continues 'banks' of the future will be data centers. Also might be a way to make money on idle servers at data centers. If anything this is an extremely interesting time in currency experimentation. Side effect of this is massive energy cost, another awesome side effect is hardware/supercomputer miniaturization and evolution. Great for really hard…

I'm amazed that there hasn't been a scandal with some Googler or Microsofty or Appler or academic finding a way to use some fraction of their unused cycles for mining.
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