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_why's complete printer spool as one book [pdf]

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Re: _why's complete printer spool as one book [pdf]

#81
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific about what seemed wrong to you about the culture surrounding ruby? I'm curious.

I can try to explain my impression, which is quite similar, only, in my case, wasn't strong enough to drive me away from Ruby. I started reading Poignant Guide with the aim of improving my Ruby knowledge (I started with Pickaxe and was quite satisfied with it), and learning Ruby idioms and philosophy better. Instead, I found a cryptic artsy graphic novel full of absurd humour, cultural references and so on. I found i…

> I started reading Poignant Guide with the aim of improving my Ruby knowledge

Well there's your first problem.

Re: _why's complete printer spool as one book [pdf]

#82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Our modern software community", referring to the current generation of the software community How about the current (or probably already the previous) generation of Ruby programmers? I think that would fit the bill a lot better. And that probably would need the word 'subset' in there somewhere.

It would. I wasn't expecting this thread to turn as heated as it abruptly became, or I'd have thought my words out more carefully. Forgive my sloppiness?

> Forgive my sloppiness?

Nothing to forgive, it's just something that needed some qualifiers. Talking in absolutes is always risky. Good to see you back on HN!

Re: _why's complete printer spool as one book [pdf]

#83

It is easy to see _why as "the crazy ruby guy who wrote some scripts and created all this drama around his persona". Even though _why did indeed write some (very useful) programs, I think this view of him misses the point and probably explains why so many people seem to be puzzled by his newest endeavour. Yes, he wrote some Ruby code, but the code was his least important contribution. _why was the first person to act…

> _why was the first person to actually create art around and about software. That's complete rubbish. But it probably is correct that he was the first person that created art around and about software that you are aware of.

[OP here, figured it might be helpful to actually create an account...]

In that case, could you please name a few artists that you believe did exactly that? I'm honestly interested in finding more of such art. But before you do, let me rephrase what I wrote above, because it's easy to misunderstand one short sentence (and I'm definitely guilty of not explaining very well what I mean): When I talk about art around and about software, I mean

a) art, i.e. not just something beautiful or well-crafted, but something which explores the human condition with an artistic purpose

b) around software, i.e. art that uses code as an integral part of the artwork (not just a painting about programming for example)

c) about software, i.e. it does not only use code to convey something, but code itself is the subject (Code for Code's sake)

I'm honestly not aware of anything that fits this description before _why's work (or at least of nothing that I would consider as art, and yes, that's somewhat hard to define). More concretely, I would exclude any works that simply praise mathematical / structural elegance, perfection or purity. Even though their creators may be artists and use artistic methods, I would hesitate to call such works "Art" with a capital A.

So, games/demos/processing sketches/audi-visual programming/software patterns/etc all do not fit these criteria. They may be very skillful works of art, but none of them tackle the subject of software & code at their core. While many focus on the mathematical perfection in code, _why focused on human imperfection and a creator's struggle while writing code.

Re: _why's complete printer spool as one book [pdf]

#84
post #81
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can try to explain my impression, which is quite similar, only, in my case, wasn't strong enough to drive me away from Ruby. I started reading Poignant Guide with the aim of improving my Ruby knowledge (I started with Pickaxe and was quite satisfied with it), and learning Ruby idioms and philosophy better. Instead, I found a cryptic artsy graphic novel full of absurd humour, cultural references and so on. I found i…

> I started reading Poignant Guide with the aim of improving my Ruby knowledge Well there's your first problem.

I understand that (now), however, PGR has often been recommended as an introductory book to Ruby, while it should be considered a piece of art in the first place. I guess _why should have chosen a bit more esoteric language as a vehicle. Luckily, there's plenty of them floating around ever since the fifties. :)

Re: _why's complete printer spool as one book [pdf]

#85
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got that out of your system, buddy? "Our modern software community", referring to the current generation of the software community, obviously doesn't refer to the whole generation of people who existed and did good work before _why entered the scene. Clearly Ada Lovelace and _why were far from contemporaries. You are reading something into what I wrote that isn't actually there. It's nice that you're as passionate ab…

> Got that out of your system, buddy? No. >"Our modern software community", referring to the current generation of the software community, obviously doesn't refer to the whole generation of people who existed and did good work before _why entered the scene. In our generation you can find tons of people doing performance art with code and custom hardware. The music scene is positively bursting at the seams, as is the…

Sure. You're not wrong.

I'm not a programmer. I'm barely even a member of this community. You're far more involved in this world than I am; you know names and see projects that never cross my path. My understanding of your world is shallow. I wouldn't blame that on the community, actually; that's all my fault. :-)

Let me argue from a different, slightly better-thought-out angle. It's not that no programmers do artistic things. Indeed, there are fascinating people using code pretty much everywhere, and there have been for decades. What made _why unique was that many of his projects were aimed at introducing new people to programming, in a plethora of different ways which felt more organic and intimate than your average "learn to code" resource. Codecademy, which enjoyed a tremendous success over the last year, struck me as a slightly less whimsical version of _why's TryRuby, which always struck me as particularly ingenious.

Plenty of interesting programmers don't concern themselves much with reading out to amateurs, whereas _why had the (Poignant) Guide and TryRuby and Shoes. And _why wrote, not just about the code itself, but about the culture; some of the most interesting parts of the (Poignant) Guide concerned not the Ruby language, but the Ruby culture, which he made out to be particularly enthusiastic and welcoming. (While he was a member of the community, he did a fantastic job of encouraging young idiots like myself; I received an email from him 5 years ago while I hated my environment and what I was doing and it helped me out tremendously.)

It seemed, and still seems now, like he was making an incredible effort to reach out to a sort of person that normally was turned off by the way programming worked, and convince them to give programming a try anyway. At the same time, the things he said which were critical about the community rang true with those of us who didn't feel like proper parts of it – I, as I've already admitted, am not really a programmer and my approaches to building things tend to run contrary to how most programmers work. Yet with him, and with people who were especially inspired by his work, my way of doing things has felt like a valid and worthwhile approach to making things, and I've been able to feel like a bit more part of a community because of it.

I wish there were more people like _why doing that. The programming world still feels like a cold and forbidding place to those of us who aren't already within it. It's a shame that it feels that way. I don't think that it has to be.

Re: _why's complete printer spool as one book [pdf]

#86
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got that out of your system, buddy? "Our modern software community", referring to the current generation of the software community, obviously doesn't refer to the whole generation of people who existed and did good work before _why entered the scene. Clearly Ada Lovelace and _why were far from contemporaries. You are reading something into what I wrote that isn't actually there. It's nice that you're as passionate ab…

> Got that out of your system, buddy? No. >"Our modern software community", referring to the current generation of the software community, obviously doesn't refer to the whole generation of people who existed and did good work before _why entered the scene. In our generation you can find tons of people doing performance art with code and custom hardware. The music scene is positively bursting at the seams, as is the…

> In our generation you can find tons of people doing performance art with code and custom hardware. The music scene is positively bursting at the seams, as is the gaming community.

This is specifically addressed in the top post. You're attacking a strawman. Nobody is saying that this stuff isn't valuable, it's just fundamentally different from what this post is talking about.

I won't go so far as to say that you're wrong, but you're really being an asshole right now.

Re: _why's complete printer spool as one book [pdf]

#87
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> _why was the first person to actually create art around and about software. That's complete rubbish. But it probably is correct that he was the first person that created art around and about software that you are aware of.

[OP here, figured it might be helpful to actually create an account...] In that case, could you please name a few artists that you believe did exactly that? I'm honestly interested in finding more of such art. But before you do, let me rephrase what I wrote above, because it's easy to misunderstand one short sentence (and I'm definitely guilty of not explaining very well what I mean): When I talk about art around and…

> or at least of nothing that I would consider as art

That probably is part of the problem here.

For starters, you could try looking into Jeffrey Shaw & Gideon May.

Netochka Nezvanova is another name that springs to mind (but that likely will not qualify by some of your criteria), the Electronic Disturbance Theater is another.

There are probably 100's if not 1000's of artists that have chosen to use the computer as their medium of choice, usually they don't make the code central to the expression because the code is the vehicle.

But there are definitely artists that craft with the code as their central means of expression.

I feel that by first stating something overbroad and now redefining it in a way that is overly narrow to then be able to say that 'see, nobody fits the exact same niche' is a bit of a cheap trick, after all, _why was just _why, unique, like every other artist. So no, if you keep on adding conditions why nobody was like him or even crafting 'art' you can easily exclude the rest of the world and maintain your claim. But that's a pretty limiting act and it seems like a very technical way to win the argument.

_why was neither the first, the last or particularly special in what he did unless you mean special to be used as 'specific' rather than as a claim to quality. He successfully promoted himself, his art and incidentally the ruby language. But that does not warrant such overbroad claims as were made above.

Re: _why's complete printer spool as one book [pdf]

#88
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me modify the OP's comment, Jacques: _why was one of the first people to create art around and about our modern software community. There are a variety of cultures surrounding coding which, while somewhat diverse, still feel like somewhat of an echo chamber. You have the coding-for-startups culture, for one, and then you have people who are very invested in coding efficiency for the sake of coding efficiency. Bot…

> Let me modify the OP's comment, Jacques: _why was one of the first people to create art around and about our modern software community. Let me modify jacquesm's comment so we can put a halt on this. Fuck you for discarding the creative work of literally a whole generation of people in the software community before _why entered the scene. I cannot use any term less hostile. It's that repugnant to me. It's such a tox…

Wow, I really did not expect such a reaction.

Where exactly do you see me (OP) or the parent discard the creative work of a whole generation of people? In fact, in my top post I talked about a very particular combination of different things that make _why unique. I still stand by the hypothesis that _why was (at least one of) the first artist(s) to show such a combination in his artwork.

Of course there were lots of people before _why thinking about and expressing the relationship between art and programming. There were also lots of people thinking about teaching children just for recreative purposes (Alan Kay comes to mind as the most prominent example). There were lots of people fusing emotions with programming, in fact every act of coding is very emotional. I never said anything to the contrary and so I cannot see how you arrive at phrases like "mindless, emotionless robot".

Individual contributions such as the poignant guide, Shoes and even TryRuby are not really that important in my opinion, neither are they unique to _why. As I said, it's not _whys code that matters (to me). But rather _why's whole collection of "stuff" is so much more than a bunch of random things, it is a very coherent (funny to say that in the context of _why...) artistic opus with a clear signature and an artist's style. And I am not talking about code style here, I am talking about a clearly identifiable artistic message.

Re: _why's complete printer spool as one book [pdf]

#89
post #70

On page 58, there is more text that can be seen through the partially transparent page. I messed around with it trying to find the right amount of blur and noise removal and various effects on it to make the text most readable, and this is what I came out with: http://i.imgur.com/CyyWWBR.png It looks like the title is "A-Power-Plant". This leads me to believe that this section of the book has been printed out, laid o…

Maybe this? http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/a-power-plant/
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