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$10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

pycon.blogspot.com

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Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#81

Post by steveklabnik »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #76
pekk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my knowledge, PyLadies has not engaged in discrimination. It isn't discrimination to make groups which encourage minorities to code or get involved in the Python community or whatever. Men are not being hurt by the existence of PyLadies in any way.

So if I set up a "boys only" tech club or society, people wouldn't be screaming bloody murder, calling me sexist, and claiming that I was trying to keep women out of tech' and or reinforcing the glass ceiling? Because frankly, I cannot see that going down well at all...

From the front page of http://www.pyladies.com/ :

> Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate!

You're making an unfounded assumption that PyLadies is women only.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#82

Post by cpsales »

SeanDav wrote: post #13

In the light of what happened at PyCon with Adria Richards and the whole internet explosion of nastiness and short sightedness from all sides I actually don't quite know what to think about "Women in Tech" I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all femal…

> "honest and open discussion."

Never going to happen when people can profit off of the controversy:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1awnzx/so_you_know_th...

See this link & people like Rev. Al Sharpton who make bank off of a group's union in victimhood.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#83

Post by steveklabnik »

AgathaTheWitch wrote: post #55

I respect their intentions and I am sure they are doing good work. Regardless as a matter of principle I do not donate to organizations that discriminate on the basis of sex.

Good thing PyLadies doesn't, then! I'm sure they look forward to your support.

    > Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate!
    > 
    > http://www.pyladies.com/

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#84

Post by doktrin »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #53
gojomo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You "would rather not even see articles like this" -- just because it reminds you of that other controversy, which this article had the good sense not to mention? As you note, the previous controversy had no real winners. Well, we all keep losing when that connection is reflexively made. Sure, it's natural to recall personally, but it doesn't need to be strengthened with constant mentions and fresh complaints. I sugg…

> the previous controversy had no real winners Sadly, I have to disagree. The hordes of abusive misogynists scored a big victory in their tireless efforts to terrorize and deter women from working in tech or, indeed, speaking publicly at all.

That's a one sided over-simplification of what actually took place.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#85

Post by kaoD »

amix wrote: post #44

PyCon had 500 women out of 2500 attendance. Gave away over $100,000 in financial aid. Gave away 2500 Raspberry Pi's. Thought kids to code. Raised $10,000 for the PyLadies. Gave permission to publish amazing online videos etc. And then you have these 3 idiots (and more online idiots) that steal the spotlight and everybody focuses on them. Sigh. Let's focus on the positive stuff!

And thanks to you everybody focuses in them once again.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#86

Post by pifflesnort »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #77
pifflesnort wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a rhetorical device, intended to use an emotional argument ("hatred, rage, vulgar insults and detailed threads of rape, bodily harm, and murder!!!") to justify totally unrelated behavior of public naming and shaming for a mild offense. This is exactly the sort of virulent emotionally-driven argumentative behavior that I don't want to have become a standard fixture in the technology community. Issues like this…

It's not a freaking rhetorical device to point out that every single time a woman speaks up about inappropriate behaviour, she ends up paying a terrible price in harassment, abuse, threats, and hatred. It is theoretically possible to have a civil discussion about whether Richards went about reporting the inappropriate behaviour in the right way (and it is 100% clear that the PyCon organizers agreed the behaviour was…

> It's not a freaking rhetorical device to point out that every single time a woman speaks up about inappropriate behaviour, she ends up paying a terrible price in harassment, abuse, threats, and hatred.

There was a code of conduct, a means to report issues, and the issue was addressed appropriately through it. End of story.

The fact that the internet trolls became involved is totally unrelated to the behavior of the offending parties at PyCon, and is the simple consequence of using an editorial platform in ways that can anger anonymous commentators of dubious maturity and judgement: http://hollywoodlife.com/2013/03/14/olivia-wilde-justin-bieb...

> It is theoretically possible to have a civil discussion about whether Richards went about reporting the inappropriate behaviour in the right way (and it is 100% clear that the PyCon organizers agreed the behaviour was inappropriate).

They simply enforced the basic human courtesy of taking reasonable steps to avoid offending the people around you.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#87

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

steveklabnik wrote: post #81
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I set up a "boys only" tech club or society, people wouldn't be screaming bloody murder, calling me sexist, and claiming that I was trying to keep women out of tech' and or reinforcing the glass ceiling? Because frankly, I cannot see that going down well at all...

From the front page of http://www.pyladies.com/ : > Anyone with an interest in Python is encouraged to participate! You're making an unfounded assumption that PyLadies is women only.

Fine, so what if I created something with the goal of:

> We are an international mentorship group with a focus on helping more men become active participants and leaders in the Python open-source community.

How do you think that would go down?

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#88

Post by gosukiwi »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #74
martythemaniak wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently sharing a joke with a friend now qualifies you as an "idiot".

And not even an offensive joke either. They literally made a juvenile penis reference. Who here hasn't made one? Even made one today?

Haha, he said penis. /joke

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#89

Post by smsm42 »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #64
smsm42 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story went a bit further than "attempts to bring people's attention". As it is pretty clear by now, Richards is a crusader, repeatedly blowing things out of proportion and raising big controversy out of most mundane things, and in this case it cost somebody his job. So while indeed she did nothing nothing comparable to death threats and other such filth, something more that "attempt to bring attention" did happen…

That's not clear at all. I highly recommend reading this essay for a more careful look at what Richards has actually done by way of promoting gender equality rather than what her detractors (both civil and hateful) are saying about her: http://www.technologywoman.com/2013/03/24/digging-beneath-th... What is clear is that a huge number of people who thought it was totally unacceptable for Richards to identify inapprop…

>>>> for a more careful look at what Richards has actually done by way of promoting gender equality

I've looked into the essay and I don't see what Richards has actually done to promote gender equality. What I see is justification of why what Richards was doing is actually good because it promoted right causes - e.g. fighting porn which is evil (note that in 99% of texts, "some" and "many" are first-person pronouns) and opposing jokes that feature women (which implied that women can be dumb, which is verboten). I think it is OK to support people that you ideologically agree with and that support causes that you like. That does not change the fact that Richards was a crusader for these causes and took the slightest opportunity to blow it up into @-ism case. This is not a case of common person being offended. This is a case of a crusader looking for an opportunity to be offended to promote her agenda and finding it.

Consider this - suppose the XKCD comics would feature men and not women. Would somebody say "this implies all men are dumb?" Not likely. Would somebody say "even jokes imply there are no women in tech - everybody assumes even dumb characters still are men, women just do not exist"? Much more likely. That's the distorted lens crusader sees the world through. You can find offense in anything if you look hard enough. Does it really make the world better if you look that hard? I do not think so.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#90

Post by king_jester »

SeanDav wrote: post #13

In the light of what happened at PyCon with Adria Richards and the whole internet explosion of nastiness and short sightedness from all sides I actually don't quite know what to think about "Women in Tech" I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all femal…

> I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all female btw) that a part of me would be quite happy if I never saw a female in tech again.

So because there was an incident revolving around a woman and varying degrees of of what people consider feminism, you'd rather not see a woman in tech again? So if there is some new incident in the future involving a person of color, you'd rather not see people of color in tech again? Surely you can see that this attitude is really dismissive and while you may not feel so about pycon, in different circumstances this line of thinking is used to dismiss situations in which people suffer harshly, such as sexual assault or domestic violence.

> We all lost in that affair - male, female, tech, non tech.

I can't really say I agree, the people that really lost out the most are the two people who lost their jobs and have had the professional reputations damaged to varying degrees.

I would also like to point out that you feel you'd rather not see women in tech again, but you don't seem to feel that you should be excluded from tech. If that is the case, is it true that you have suffered as a man as much as women have if the pycon incident makes you feel women do not belong?

> A part of me doesn't even want to think about it again for some time until the dust has completely settled. I would rather not even see articles like this.

This is unlikely, because despite how hyperbolic some people have been about Adria Richards, sexism in tech is a real issue that affects people, so there will continue to be articles and dialogue about it.

> A bigger part also realizes that there are real issues with sexism and would love to see more women in tech and understands that the only way that is going to happen is by honest and open discussion.

Saying there are "real issues" with sexism implies that you get to define what sexism is, but that would be problematic to say the least. Also, openness and honesty in the context sexism (not with the pycon incident, mind you) generally may expose people to physical violence and harassment, so dialog isn't the only tool in the kit worth using at times.

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