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Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#81
I suffer from depression, but there is a silver lining to it. You learn how to cope with and overcome hopelessness. You basically become emotionally impermeable to anything the world (startup or regular) can throw at you because you've already lived through the worst of it in a broken mind.

Now this is the perspective of someone that has known depression for a long time. If you are new to depression should you do a startup??? As long as you are getting professional help, you can do whatever you want. If that is a startup, then do the startup. Just recognize that you have to actively address your depression in the beginning as you learn how to reduce it, weather its storms & live with the residual aftermath.

Depression is nothing to fear, its just something that sucks for a while, and sucks less and less over time. But if you do have it, I hope you find happiness in knowing that you will become stronger and a more resilient as a result of it, which seem like pretty good characteristics for a co-founder to have.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#82
post #79

Note to people that know me IRL: This comment is quite personal. Feel free to read it but please bear that in mind. I've really been trying to bite my tongue in the last 2 months but the number of articles about depression on HN is overwhelming and it's starting to bug me. A lot. And by "bug" I mean "upset, anger, and insult". Here's some ground rules for not being insulting. It is possible to break these rules and n…

As a brother in arms in the battle with the same personal illness, you nailed everything I was thinking. When I first read even just the title my first reaction was "Screw you, random post on HN".

If you really want to be helpful with startsup and depression, encourage people to get some mental health treatment. No one ever has to fight alone nor is it a battle that can be won without support.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#83
People are ripping on the OP, but I think his advice is good.

VC-istan is corporate life. Corporate life, for most people in most organizations, is depressing. All of it, whether it's a startup or some dead-end subordinate position at a Fortune 500, is pretty awful. The natural human tendency toward work has been perverted through subordination, inadequate rewards, wasted efforts, and capricious evaluation.

The difference is that the former is often all-consuming, while the latter tends to be, although miserable, limited in scope. If you tend toward depression, you're more likely to have it flare up in a 90-hour VC-istan gig than a 40-hour corporate job.

The problem isn't that business formation itself is detrimental, but that VC-istan is an ecosystem where (a) economic life dominates a person's existence, crowding out everything else, and (b) there's extreme volatility with no safety net. If you're a grunt, your startup might acqui-fail and dump you into a subordinate position that makes no sense, or you might get fired on day 364 with no severance and no equity because of the "cliff". If you're a founder, your investors hold all the cards and you're just there to do the legwork until you burn out and fall to pieces (and will then be replaced either with one of their friends, or another young, clueless, idiot).

It's not startups that are the problem, though. It's unhealthy work environments.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#84
post #79

Note to people that know me IRL: This comment is quite personal. Feel free to read it but please bear that in mind. I've really been trying to bite my tongue in the last 2 months but the number of articles about depression on HN is overwhelming and it's starting to bug me. A lot. And by "bug" I mean "upset, anger, and insult". Here's some ground rules for not being insulting. It is possible to break these rules and n…

I have two minds about the depression/startup debate.

First, I'm going to make a blanket statement. People with depression are, as a group, better people. Sure, there are bad people with depression and good people without it but, in the aggregate, people who have suffered through it tend to be more empathetic and less mean-spirited. You're not likely to kick those who are down if you've been down. If you've had a 3-month spell in which everything took a massive amount of effort, you're not likely to inject annual "low performer" witch hunts into a company (cf. Enron, Google) for shits and giggles. So, it might get good for VC-istan to be more accepting of neuro-diversity. People with mild depression are also less prone to the absurd optimistic bias that plagues the ecosystem (depressive realism). People like that shouldn't be excluded just because they're the first to crack in this absurd brogrammer pressure-cooker that actually results in an extremely low quality of work across the board.

Finally, business formation doesn't have to be an all-consuming, destroys-your-life-if-it-doesn't-work-out-and-merely-ruins-it-if-it-does, affair. Our natural tendency, as humans, is to examine and improve things. For many of us, that includes abstract processes. That's kind of what business formation is... or at least where it starts. It's too natural and important of a process for it to exclude people who can't lay down a 5000-hour work year. It's a 90-hour-per-week, all-consuming affair in VC-istan, but maybe the problem is that ecosystem and not business formation (a millennia-old, natural process) itself.

On the other hand, there is currently no way for most people to start businesses that isn't unhealthy. Bank loans expect personal liability. VC-istan's problems are well-documented; VC's can ruin your reputation and make you unemployable and unfundable, so they hold all the cards. Using personal savings isn't a good idea in a world where full-time employment is taxing enough to exclude almost everyone over 65. Using friends-and-family money is even worse, because it can interfere with the personal relationships people need to be healthy. Then, in the U.S., there is the evil of private health insurance.

Obviously, I'm not saying that business formation should be entirely risk-less, but right now, there's no healthy way for most people to do it. Most people don't have the capital, relationships, and leeway.

I wish there were a healthy way for people who are inclined toward business formation to do it, and maybe that's the real problem we should be out solving.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#85
post #2

> For some reason start-ups are a magnet for people that suffer from depression. I posit: it's hard to hold a steady job while suffering from untreated depression. (Or ADD. Or social anxiety. Or any number of other things.) Between your (inevitably short) periods of employment, you tinker. Tinkering leads to projects, projects become startups, and--if you're good at what you do--before you know it, you're under a ton…

Everything in the working world fails people with mental illness, even at low levels that aren't especially problematic under less pressure. There are very few organizations that actually promote based on excellence. Most set up a war of attrition based on shared suffering and the mountain of pointless work generated by bike-shedding executives. People with depression (or anxiety, ADD, panic, etc.) are not intentionally excluded; they're just the first to crack. Ugly fact: it's how the system is supposed to work. Competition-on-suffering exists to filter out "the weak" and "the slackers". It's a millennia-old (wrong) mentality of work and only over the past 50 years have we understood the biological causes (not personal weakness) that actually make people drop.

The idea is to assess character by generating artificial stress, but the result is that mild (usually treatable) biological problems are misinterpreted as character flaws. Depression is read as lassitude. (It's not.) Panic is seen as "not handling pressure well." (Actually, a panic attack is 3-20 minutes of hell but the disorder does not impair judgment.) Overwork-induced social ineptitude is interpreted as selfishness. Et cetera.

This setup is sad, stupid, wrong, and counterproductive because the modern economy doesn't need pointless effort and tolerance of suffering. Slackers are no more harmful than misdirected hard workers (which is most, because the people providing direction in most organizations are clueless yes-men). What the world needs, now, are creativity, insight, and excellence, which turn out to be positively correlated with the propensity to depression.

The conformist idiocy and pointless sacrifice of corporate life are unhealthy for normal people and debilitating for many with depression. VC-istan, a very volatile form of corporate life that looks meritocratic, is worse... because people work too hard and personalize their failures.

What I'd like to see over the next 15 years is more of an ability for smart, capable people to start lifestyle businesses. Right now, it's not unreasonably hard to found a get-big-or-die VC-istan company if you have the connections, but there's a whole world of smaller businesses that's not being explored because the market to connect the resources with the talent doesn't exist yet. (Kickstarter is a step in the right direction.)

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#86
This makes me think of Abraham Lincoln, who was known to suffer from deep bouts of depression. What would have happened if somebody told him not to run for president?

I don't think suffering from depression alone is enough to rule anybody out of any particular field. There are ways of managing depression with the right support structures, therapy, medication, etc.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#87
post #79

Note to people that know me IRL: This comment is quite personal. Feel free to read it but please bear that in mind. I've really been trying to bite my tongue in the last 2 months but the number of articles about depression on HN is overwhelming and it's starting to bug me. A lot. And by "bug" I mean "upset, anger, and insult". Here's some ground rules for not being insulting. It is possible to break these rules and n…

This is really refreshing to see here. Thank you for taking the time to write something so deeply personal. Could you imagine how many people would be affected by a post telling them not to do comedy if they're depressed? This isn't just a phase for some folks; it's a series of highs and lows that never goes away. Expecting people to give up on their dreams because of a mental illness that society already tries to sweep under the rug and douse with often-ineffective drugs is beyond my comprehension. These are some of our best and brightest minds, we should be encouraging them.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not check on the state of their marriage/chances of their kids dying from a drug overdose too? Those would affect the investment too! Ugh. Come on, there has been a line of privacy somewhere.

The results don't need to be shared necessarily, it could be as simple as mandatory evaluation + unbeknownst to the investor, treatment if that's what is recommended.

You talk about treatment, but you mention that this would form part of due diligence - presumably a treatment recommendation would cause the investors to pull out?

Good luck diagnosing depression when the person being questioned knows it's the difference between his company getting investment or not - here's an e.g. form typical of the assessment you get (in the UK) - http://www.sabp.nhs.uk/Documents/D1.3d2.pdf

How do you think the candidate is going to answer to a question like 'I feel like life is not worth living?' in this situation?

And you didn't respond to my points about marriage, and drug-taking kids. I don't see why they can't be assessed if we permit assessment of mental health as a potential cause of harm to investee/investor.

Perhaps we could look into a candidate's sex life to see if he or his partner are performing satisfactorily? Sexual frustration might take a toll on a startup. Perhaps check to see if there's an ill relative who might die during the life of the startup?

Additionally, I think there's a question of how much you can really assess this stuff.

I knew a person who lost a grandparent + split up with his girlfriend + subsequently failed his degree as a consequence despite a lot of assistance, where I myself experienced considerably worse circumstances with no assistance from the university whatsoever - how would you differentiate between us? Some assessment as to our resilience perhaps?

Not to sound cliched, but this really is a slippery slope situation, even if we could reasonably expect to achieve an accurate assessment.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#89
post #79

Note to people that know me IRL: This comment is quite personal. Feel free to read it but please bear that in mind. I've really been trying to bite my tongue in the last 2 months but the number of articles about depression on HN is overwhelming and it's starting to bug me. A lot. And by "bug" I mean "upset, anger, and insult". Here's some ground rules for not being insulting. It is possible to break these rules and n…

> Do not assume there is a correlation between depression and suicide. The connection is actually very weak, far weaker than most people assume.

Do you have a source for this? I've been searching for a bit, but can't find anything that indicates depression is very weakly related to suicide.

Re: Suffering From Depression? Don't Do That Start-up

#90
post #79

Note to people that know me IRL: This comment is quite personal. Feel free to read it but please bear that in mind. I've really been trying to bite my tongue in the last 2 months but the number of articles about depression on HN is overwhelming and it's starting to bug me. A lot. And by "bug" I mean "upset, anger, and insult". Here's some ground rules for not being insulting. It is possible to break these rules and n…

I have two minds about the depression/startup debate. First, I'm going to make a blanket statement. People with depression are, as a group, better people. Sure, there are bad people with depression and good people without it but, in the aggregate, people who have suffered through it tend to be more empathetic and less mean-spirited. You're not likely to kick those who are down if you've been down. If you've had a 3-m…

This has nothing to do with VCs. Building a business-any business-is incredibly hard and stressful. I'm not sure if you've been there, but bootstrapping a business, really building something new and unknown from nothing, is infinitely more stressful than running a funded startup.

Raising money at least gives you a little cushion, a little breathing room to experiment and fail and try again. Bootstrapping, the "you don't sell, you don't eat" bootstraping, is constant, unending stress and fear. One single mistake, one bad hire or mismanaged advertising buy can kill the business, and the stress and pressure to stay alive is constant- the sword is always hanging over your head, and at any moment you think it's going to drop.

And that's what bootstrapping a successful, highly profitable business was like. I can't imagine what sinking all your time and savings into a failure would feel like. The sheer carefree bliss of never again having to decide whether you should buy AdWords ads or eat meat this week is worth whatever equity stake you give up.

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