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The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

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Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#81

Post by breadwinner »

wakawaka28 wrote: post #64
breadwinner wrote: post #22

One of the issues is conflation of IT jobs and High Tech jobs. Those making laws don't understand the difference -- they are all "computer jobs" to them. IT does not require immigrant labor. Companies such as Infosys and Tata don't need to be operating in the US. There are plenty of US workers available to do the job. But High Tech is different. High Tech needs the best in the world, not the best in the US. The US le…

I think everyone (or virtually everyone) is OK with actual world-leading researchers coming to the US. But what we don't want is the labor market flooded with foreign "talent". The system is designed to try to get the researchers and noteworthy people, but corrupt people have found ways around all of it. There are paper mills, degree mills, cheating rings, etc. Plus firms that exist solely to funnel foreigners into t…

Agree with your first two paragraphs, disagree with the last.

> If foreign researchers are able to prove themselves abroad and contribute as you say, I assume they can continue doing that in most cases without coming to the US to take jobs.

They can't prove themselves abroad. Consider the example of "Attention is all you need" paper. That paper came into existence thanks to talented people from around the world coming together in one place and then collaborating. It would not have happened if the contributors stayed in their own countries.

> If immigrants are such a great resource, why are poor countries not trying harder to keep those people from leaving?

They are. See here: https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/china-restricts-o...

> Why doesn't China import a bunch of Indians for IT work, or vice versa?

They are trying. See here: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/14/world/asia/china-stem-vis...

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#82

Post by bluGill »

nkrisc wrote: post #8
skmurphy wrote: post #2

Conclusion: "There is plenty of international talent that can and should be leveraged in the appropriate places and the proper ways. There are many instances where you’re going to want to hire a leading expert in a technical field. But most jobs, the qualifications are a core technical and subject competency combined with diligence and a willingness to learn. [..] We need to encourage a corporate mindset that believe…

It’s going to need to be strong “encouragement”, either monetary or regulatory. Because it is advantageous to be the only one who doesn’t invest in it while reaping the benefits from those who do. So very few do.

That is easy to say. You can put it on a political mailing "vote for me and I'll"... However details matter. I've yet to see any detailed proposal that isn't obviously worse than where we are now.

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#85

Post by wakawaka28 »

breadwinner wrote: post #81
wakawaka28 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think everyone (or virtually everyone) is OK with actual world-leading researchers coming to the US. But what we don't want is the labor market flooded with foreign "talent". The system is designed to try to get the researchers and noteworthy people, but corrupt people have found ways around all of it. There are paper mills, degree mills, cheating rings, etc. Plus firms that exist solely to funnel foreigners into t…

Agree with your first two paragraphs, disagree with the last. > If foreign researchers are able to prove themselves abroad and contribute as you say, I assume they can continue doing that in most cases without coming to the US to take jobs. They can't prove themselves abroad. Consider the example of "Attention is all you need" paper. That paper came into existence thanks to talented people from around the world comin…

>They can't prove themselves abroad. Consider the example of "Attention is all you need" paper. That paper came into existence thanks to talented people from around the world coming together in one place and then collaborating. It would not have happened if the contributors stayed in their own countries.

I think this is a stretch, especially now that we have the internet. I also wouldn't be opposed to non-immigrant research visas, perhaps a specialized type of H1-B visa (since most of these people are not independently wealthy). But what I don't want is any random foreigner who has their name on some academic papers to be considered top talent. There are paper mills that crank these people out (putting their names on papers without any involvement), and besides that most research is just not that good. Why would we want a bunch of mediocre foreign researchers to come and take jobs away from mediocre American researchers? As we know, getting jobs in academia is very difficult as-is.

You got me on China trying to stop talent from leaving. It's an authoritarian country though. You can't even travel around freely inside the country lol! I threw China in there because a lot of H1-Bs and students are actually Chinese, but China is not where most of them come from.

You also got me on China allegedly trying to get talent to move to China. Their people seem to have had a predictable reaction. That's really something, considering that they can get in trouble for criticizing their government. I guess they thought it was worth the risk, because doing nothing would screw them even harder.

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#87

Post by cucumber3732842 »

utokyoberkeley wrote: post #84
cucumber3732842 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

> I think people from all background can be great

Some have better odds than others. Is it culture? Is it genetics? Is it upbringing? Who cares it's not like you get to choose any of them.

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#88

Post by GlibMonkeyDeath »

wakawaka28 wrote: post #73
GlibMonkeyDeath wrote: post #12

"The H-1B program was started with the vision of finding von Brauns across other industries and bringing them into the US" Is this true? I thought the the "O" visa accomplished this. H-1B is for specific worker shortages. Of course, a "shortage" from a company's perspective is "no Americans are applying for my position", which isn't necessarily because there are no qualified Americans to hire...

That isn't what it means to have a shortage. In many cases Americans are discouraged from applying for these jobs. They can overspecify the criteria or be overly skeptical about your resume, write the job listing poorly, or hide the job listing entirely. What a shortage really means from their perspective is that they can't find enough workers for the price they want to pay (as opposed to what they can afford). Howev…

"What a shortage really means from their perspective is that they can't find enough workers for the price they want to pay"

Exactly - we are in agreement

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#89

Post by breadwinner »

wakawaka28 wrote: post #85
breadwinner wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with your first two paragraphs, disagree with the last. > If foreign researchers are able to prove themselves abroad and contribute as you say, I assume they can continue doing that in most cases without coming to the US to take jobs. They can't prove themselves abroad. Consider the example of "Attention is all you need" paper. That paper came into existence thanks to talented people from around the world comin…

>They can't prove themselves abroad. Consider the example of "Attention is all you need" paper. That paper came into existence thanks to talented people from around the world coming together in one place and then collaborating. It would not have happened if the contributors stayed in their own countries. I think this is a stretch, especially now that we have the internet. I also wouldn't be opposed to non-immigrant r…

> I think this is a stretch, especially now that we have the internet.

We disagree on your first paragraph, agree on the rest.

Re: The American Worker vs. the Most Qualified

#90

Post by snovymgodym »

phainopepla2 wrote: post #41
ecshafer wrote: post #18

I have seen H1Bs used for basic Java development, Desktop Support, CRM managemetn, Marketing, Project Managers, and all sorts of basic office work. The idea its used for the best and brightest is absurd. When you also count the massive fraud in H1B, people looking for kickbacks, racial preferences, lying on resumes (I once interviewed an H1B with 4 pages on their resume, couldn't answer a single question from what I…

> I have seen H1Bs used for basic Java development, Desktop Support [...] Working in non-FAANG corporate America, these types of roles are the only thing thing I've ever seen H1B hires used for. They've run the gamut from incompetent to quite good, but none have ever been the "best and brightest". It saddens me that the left no longer seems to care about protecting American workers.

> It saddens me that the left no longer seems to care about protecting American workers.

We basically do not have a left wing party in this country. We have a center right party with "progressive" social views that has a few economic left-wingers under its tent, and then we have a reactionary right party.

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