Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking • Hacker News Board

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#81

Post by smacktoward » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:24 PM UTC

rictic wrote: post #22

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

Putting weapons in the hands of teachers and other school officials makes intuitive sense, however the case where it will need to be used is very rare, yet to be useful the weapons will need to be readily available at all times. As a result, it's plausible that the total magnitude of injury would be higher due to accident, misuse, etc.

Not to mention that the weapons stored in the schools would be a tempting target for theft, or for commandeered use by a hostile intruder.

After all, how elaborate are the protections they are stored behind likely to be? Not very, when you consider that (1) if the weapons are ever needed they'll need to be able to be gotten to fast, and (2) the people responsible for storing them are going to be middle school administrators, not military quartermasters.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#82

Post by jack-r-abbit » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:26 PM UTC

jwhitlark wrote: post #70

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I want teachers to focus on teaching our kids (and some can't even do that... 'nother topic). I would rather have the protection of our kids left to people who are trained and ready for that. One thing is securing entry to the school. It sounds like the CT school had measures in place to keep out the random creep that might wander in but that didn't stop a kid from blasting his way in. Would bullet-proof gla…

Fortresses, particularly those without an active defense, have a bad track record. Shields don't work without the ability to hit back. Or, as the saying goes, "It takes two sides to have a battle, but only one to have a massacre."

Well, slowing a person down with a little harder to get through first barrier gives more time between first notice and first action. Some times just buying enough time to hide/flee can save lives.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#83

Post by GVIrish » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:27 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #73

diego wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here, see my previous post plotting homicides vs gun ownership across countries: http://diegobasch.com/homicides-vs-gun-ownership Yes, the average American (not necessarily you, it varies a lot depending on where you live) is more likely to be killed by a gun than the average person in Finland. That is completely irrelevant to my post. It's not a competition among countries, it's about making the US better. "D…

> It's not a competition among countries, it's about making the US better. But you conclude there is no need to fix the current problem. Comparing America to other Developed countries clearly shows there is.

Yes we should probably take action, but that doesn't mean banning guns or making tougher gun laws is necessarily the correct action. If you want to compare to other developed countries, Switzerland has a high gun ownership rate (about 45 guns per 100 people vs 88 per 100 for the US) yet their gun homicide rate is one-seventh what it is in the United States. So if it were just about guns one would think that Switzerland would have a lot more gun murders.

Gun deaths in the United States have been declining for the since the 90's in spite of loosening of gun laws. We need to be studying those factors so that we can craft better policy.

Don't get me wrong, clearly if less people have guns less people can shoot other people. But if you really want to improve society you've got to get at the root causes of violence rather than just attacking the tools.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#84

Post by smacktoward » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:28 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #57

nollidge wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you gun control advocates have not forgotten about the second amendment since the opposition will not shut up about it. Also, all the rights listed in the first ten amendments are limited to the point at which you're infringing on someone else's rights. The threat of death or injury, such as it is, would seem to be a pretty clear reason to limit that right.

And I welcome you to explain to me how my owning a particular type of firearms constitutes "threat of death or injury." Brandishing is already a crime, so I fail to see what point you're trying to make.

If you fail to store it securely, it could be stolen and used against me.

If you fail to operate it properly, I could be struck by a bullet fired by you at somebody else.

2nd Amendment absolutists love talking about their rights, but spend precious little time talking about the responsibilities that come with them. Which are (or should be) significant, when the right you are talking about is the right to wield a lethal weapon.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#85

Post by amckenna » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:29 PM UTC

platform wrote: post #69

rictic wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting weapons in the hands of teachers and other school officials makes intuitive sense, however the case where it will need to be used is very rare, yet to be useful the weapons will need to be readily available at all times. As a result, it's plausible that the total magnitude of injury would be higher due to accident, misuse, etc.

It is unlikely though. Basically if this logic have worked -- airline pilots would not have been armed (after 9/11). However many are, and many plain-dressed armed security agents board planes. Schools, summer camps, sporting events, theaters, amusement parks, universities and other so-called gun-free zones -- are soft targets that are going to be exploited by criminals/terrorists (one just has to look at where those…

You can't say arming pilots and air-martials is the same as arming teachers and faculty. Arming a pilot who sits in a locked cockpit while they fly a plane for 3-12 hours, or a trained undercover officer is in a whole different league than arming teachers who interact with students for 7+ hours a day. Would you arm flight attendants?

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#86

Post by amckenna » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:30 PM UTC

reminds me of a fight club quote:

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#87

Post by ahlatimer » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:30 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #73

diego wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here, see my previous post plotting homicides vs gun ownership across countries: http://diegobasch.com/homicides-vs-gun-ownership Yes, the average American (not necessarily you, it varies a lot depending on where you live) is more likely to be killed by a gun than the average person in Finland. That is completely irrelevant to my post. It's not a competition among countries, it's about making the US better. "D…

> It's not a competition among countries, it's about making the US better. But you conclude there is no need to fix the current problem. Comparing America to other Developed countries clearly shows there is.

Where did the author conclude there was no need to fix the current problem? My understanding of the article is that there is no clear answer to the problem, given that every potential solution has loads of potential side effects, some of them with the potential to outweigh the positives of the original solution. That doesn't mean it doesn't need to be fixed; just that the fix should be driven by rational thought and understanding rather than emotion.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#88

Post by bsg75 » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:31 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #78

bsg75 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some states, non-active LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) would be prevented by law from being armed, especially as private citizens on school property. H.R.218 is not widely accepted enough to provide for this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety... ) In my state many middle and high schools have assigned SROs (School Resource Officers / Deputies), whose primary role is not protection, but…

just to clarify, I was not advocating prison like barriers. I don't know the name of the type glass that is not bullet proof, per se, but even when penetrated with a bullet it still would not allow entry. I've seen glass that has the criss-cross wires in it that is not bullet proof, but the wires make it very difficult to smash out/though. Obviously I don't know the specifics of exactly how he gained entry other than…

> just to clarify, I was not advocating prison like barriers

Nor did I think you were, but added due to other comments I have seen in the media.

What I did not add / explain in my prior post is that one LEO salary per school (a M-F 7A-3P job) is both something that could be implemented very quickly, without the time and costs associated with reinforcing schools.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#89

Post by boboblong » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:32 PM UTC

nollidge wrote: post #45

pc86 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something gun control advocates seem to forget is that gun ownership is a Constitutional right for Americans. You cannot compare it to driving a car, or buying a television, or buying something from Amazon. If you're going to compare to something else for the purposes of limiting and regulating it, you need to compare to voting, assembling, practicing your faith or some other Constitutional right. When you are requir…

I assure you gun control advocates have not forgotten about the second amendment since the opposition will not shut up about it. Also, all the rights listed in the first ten amendments are limited to the point at which you're infringing on someone else's rights. The threat of death or injury, such as it is, would seem to be a pretty clear reason to limit that right.

You sound like a parody of the left. "Your rights end where my feelings begin!" Is that really your stance?

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#90

Post by jakeonthemove » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:32 PM UTC

"I personally hate guns. I have never owned or even fired one. I wish they didn’t exist, but they do" - Everyone should try to put at least two dozen rounds down the range. It's a great experience, and it can help you focus, make your mind faster and clearer (IPSC is simply awesome - go to an event).

I don't really care about the self defense aspect - even though it's enticing, having some of my stuff stolen is probably better than killing a person.