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Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

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Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#81

Post by alexgieg »

HedonicEscal8r wrote: post #35
plorkyeran wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire purpose of puberty blockers is to enable deferring the decision until you are an adult and can make a well-informed decision. The make an irrevocable decision right now options are to go through natural puberty or immediately go on HRT. We also let children decide on inflicting life-shattering bodily harm to themselves all the time. The classic examples are things like contact sports (children playing tack…

I disagree with this, puberty blockers should be used sparingly and certainly should not be taken until adulthood. Can you imagine starting puberty at 18? Trans children deserve to mature at the same time as their peers.

Who are you to decide this for them, beyond and above the professional psychiatrists and psychologists who evaluate them based on actual science, and their own parents' informed decision?

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#82

Post by alexgieg »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #56
plorkyeran wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire purpose of puberty blockers is to enable deferring the decision until you are an adult and can make a well-informed decision. The make an irrevocable decision right now options are to go through natural puberty or immediately go on HRT. We also let children decide on inflicting life-shattering bodily harm to themselves all the time. The classic examples are things like contact sports (children playing tack…

No, that is not the purpose of "puberty blockers." Those drugs were developed for four different reasons: 1. To delay extremely early-onset puberty in children as young as seven or eight who had a pituitary disorder. 2. To treat advanced prostate cancer. 3. To treat endometriosis and uterine fibroids in women. 4. As part of a treatment for breast cancers, part of fertility protocols, or treatments for endocrine disor…

Could you link to recent peer-reviewed meta-studies of medical literature showing "gender dysphoria often resolves itself as the process of puberty and natural maturation unfolds"?

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#83

Post by alexgieg »

ASalazarMX wrote: post #54
HedonicEscal8r wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that a modal person who transitions does so because they don't understand what biological changes can be achieved* and/or because society doesn't accept them "as they are" enough, you are hopelessly confused about this entire topic. *Note that a disagreement about whether currently available medical procedures constitute a "sex change" is almost always a dispute of semantics and not of fact. A trans woma…

You're not getting my point. I've seen that trans people don't want others to think of them as their former sex, they don't want to be reminded that they're still men that look look like women, or viceversa. Mentioning that they can't actually get pregnant, or impregnate someone, is taboo. IMO, this shows a strong psychological, rather than medical, motive. That sets their personal expectations to an impossible ideal…

Try knowing some in real life. I know dozens, and it's really hard not to think of them as psychologically being of the opposite gender. This tracks with the fact that neuroimaging of trans brains shows that the areas in which male and female brains differ are either of the opposite gender or have in-between values.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#84

Post by alexgieg »

pseudalopex wrote: post #59
tosti wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least you'll have a better idea if it's psychosomatic or not.

Gender dysphoria is mental by definition.

No, it's first a matter of different connectomes. Their brains are physically those of the opposite gender, as shown by several studies using advanced neuroimaging and by autopsies. The mental/psychological effects of those brains being that way are effects of those very physical differences.

To fix that, we'd need microneurosurgery on the level of science fiction. Maybe in a few decades we will, but right now, reshaping the body so it gets as close as possible to what the brain expects is the only option available.

And yes, that neuroimaging could be used as a clinical diagnostic criterion, entirely replacing psychological and psychiatric evaluations. The problem is it costs a fortune, so right now only scientific teams with big budgets use it, and only to publish papers. Over the next several years, with any luck, neuroimaging diagnosis may fall enough in price that it may become the norm, at least in first-world countries.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#85

Post by amusable »

UncleMeat wrote: post #65
amusable wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100%, completely agree with this. I was a raised in an small town in the US where men were expected to football-loving brutes with hair-trigger tempers and went deer-hunting on the weekend. Given I was never like this, I also went through a phase of questioning - until I realized there are many ways of being a man. But I didn't come to that realization until I was in college.

Okay. Is there any evidence that kids who go to a gender care specialist with the idea that they don't fit into typical gender norms just get signed up for transition care right away? Why are we assuming that "hey I don't like sports" gets you puberty blockers? Kids undergo years of assessment.

I mean, I questioned for years myself - longer than I was in that environment. And if some overzealous psychiatrist had diagnosed me as trans I would’ve absolutely taken whatever. Now that I’m older and settled and secure in my gender I’m EXTREMELY glad I didn’t do anything at the time

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#86

Post by cubefox »

alexgieg wrote: post #83
ASalazarMX wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not getting my point. I've seen that trans people don't want others to think of them as their former sex, they don't want to be reminded that they're still men that look look like women, or viceversa. Mentioning that they can't actually get pregnant, or impregnate someone, is taboo. IMO, this shows a strong psychological, rather than medical, motive. That sets their personal expectations to an impossible ideal…

Try knowing some in real life. I know dozens, and it's really hard not to think of them as psychologically being of the opposite gender. This tracks with the fact that neuroimaging of trans brains shows that the areas in which male and female brains differ are either of the opposite gender or have in-between values.

> Try knowing some in real life. I know dozens, and it's really hard not to think of them as psychologically being of the opposite gender.

I'm not sure what you mean with "opposite gender" (given that "gender" is now often no longer considered a synonym for "sex"), but I can tell you that all the MtF people I knew from college registered to me simply as men trying to act like women.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#87

Post by foco_tubi »

cubefox wrote: post #76
foco_tubi wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that you apparently can’t distinguish between puberty blockers and HRT. When women use puberty blockers, it does not make them develop male traits. What’s even more interesting is that you value Reddit as a citable source. What other valuable resources have you used to inform your opinion?

Interesting that you apparently can't distinguish between children and women. If you think the Reddit report is fake, say so explicitly.

Are you saying you believe if children use puberty blockers they will develop male traits?

Are you saying you would cite Reddit as a valid source?

Oof.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#88

Post by tosti »

alexgieg wrote: post #84
pseudalopex wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender dysphoria is mental by definition.

No, it's first a matter of different connectomes. Their brains are physically those of the opposite gender, as shown by several studies using advanced neuroimaging and by autopsies. The mental/psychological effects of those brains being that way are effects of those very physical differences. To fix that, we'd need microneurosurgery on the level of science fiction. Maybe in a few decades we will, but right now, resha…

Oh really? If a psychriatic disorder would warrant changing the environment the brain lives in, rather than any other therapy, why stop at gender disphoria?

Could the MPS people get surgerey so they have more mouths, limbs or even entire bodies except the brain? How about the schizo? Would treatment involve a set of VR goggles with a program that randomly generates perpetually morphing fantasy worlds? How about we make the depressed colorblind so their world is actually gray all the time?

I don't see why a therapy would purposefully not treat the actual symptoms, other than helping a patient understand and cope with them so they can recover their wellbeing.

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#89

Post by imperatorstorm »

konsalexee wrote: post #27
summermusic wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Irreversible damage Puberty blockers are safe, effective, and generally reversible

> Puberty blockers are safe, effective, and generally reversible Any credible studies to back this up? I find the contrary when I looked last time around, and it does not feel reversible when you disrupt the most important phase of your development (body wise). But maybe I miss context here so happy to learn

https://www.saxinstitute.org.au/resource/evidence-for-effect...

Rew, L., Young, C.C., Monge, M. and Bogucka, R. (2021), Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature. Child Adolesc Ment Health, 26: 3-14. https://doi.org/10.1111/camh.12437

Jamie L Finegan, Maja Marinkovic, Kyle Okamuro, Ron S Newfield, Jennifer T Anger, Experience with gender affirming hormones and puberty blockers (gonadotropin releasing hormone agonist): a qualitative analysis of sexual function, The Journal of Sexual Medicine, Volume 22, Issue 5, May 2025, Pages 945–950, https://doi.org/10.1093/jsxmed/qdaf061

Re: Puberty blockers trial can start recruiting children

#90

Post by cubefox »

foco_tubi wrote: post #87
cubefox wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that you apparently can't distinguish between children and women. If you think the Reddit report is fake, say so explicitly.

Are you saying you believe if children use puberty blockers they will develop male traits? Are you saying you would cite Reddit as a valid source? Oof.

> Are you saying you believe if children use puberty blockers they will develop male traits?

They will fail to develop their respective sex-typical traits, which in turn is typical of the opposite sex.

> Are you saying you would cite Reddit as a valid source?

Is there any reason to think the Reddit report is fake? If not, it is fine for me to refer to it. Besides, you were the one asking for a reference. Do you think she should have posted this to the arxiv? You are moving the goal posts.

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